124 - Commissioning artists

Today, Emily & Rachel talk about commissioning artists for book covers and artwork.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

• when and why you might work with an artist
• where and how to find artists
• what the process is like
• how to work with an artist

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Transcript

Emily: 0:46

Foreign. Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.

Rachel: 1:05

I'm Rachel.

Emily: 1:06

And I'm Emily.

Rachel: 1:07

And today we're talking about commissioning artists. So that could be like for commissioning a cover designer. Commissioning character art. Anytime you're going to hire someone to do art for you, that's what we're talking about now in, in the book process. Not like just you're becoming an art patron. We're talking about book stuff. But yeah, because I think this is something that I think it's optional, especially character artwork, I think is optional, but I think it can be very helpful. And if you don't know what you're doing or where to start or who to talk to, I don't feel like there's that much information about it. When I've commissioned character art, I just ask my friends, like, yeah, who did you use and can I use them and how much did you pay? Were they good? What was this like? So if you don't have friends to ask, we're your friends, we're going to.

Emily: 2:06

Tell you, we'll tell you. Okay, so, so let's start with why. Why would you commission an artist in the process of, of getting your book into the world?

Rachel: 2:18

Well, I've commissioned a cover designer for my books in this self publishing path, that is something that you will need to do in trad. Not so much in hybrid. It depends. But I did commission a cover designer, so that's necessary. Your book needs a cover, so that's necessary. But then I also, I've commissioned now a ton of character artwork and I did that for personal reasons of like, oh my gosh, these are my characters. Wow. But also marketing reasons primarily to use that character arc in or character art in my marketing strategy to get people interested in buying and or reading my books. So I think it's a marketing decision from both sides of it. Like your cover needs to be to fit with the market. It's a, it's a marketing strategy. Your cover itself, but that is necessary. And then artwork for character art is optional, but a solid marketing strategy. Yeah, yeah.

Emily: 3:28

And like I've had a lot of writer friends also just commission art for themselves because they want to. It's really fun to see your characters come to life and I find that it can be a really powerful and exciting sort of celebration tactic where like, once you finish your first draft, you know, that could be a carrot. Right. When I finish my first draft, I'm going to commission artwork of my characters or like, you don't have to be. That's what I did. You. Yeah.

Rachel: 3:55

Yeah.

Emily: 3:55

So the first piece of art that I commissioned, I didn't do it from a marketing standpoint. Like, it wasn't the. The second piece I did was more the style. Like, it felt more historical. It felt more like it felt more on brand with the story and marketing strategies. But the first piece that I got was just. I really liked that artist and I really wanted a piece from her. Um, and so I did. I used it like a tiny bit in my marketing, but I didn't use it a ton, just cause it didn't match what I was trying to go for. But. But I love it. I love that piece of art. So. And. And it was like within my price range at the time. So I just. Yeah, I celebrated. I think I celebrated querying with that one. Yeah. Once it. It went out, I was like, I'm gonna get artwork of my characters and bring them to life just for myself, regardless of how this process is gonna go. So I think that could be a really powerful reason to do it too.

Rachel: 4:42

And I agree. It's fun. It can be fun. It also cannot be fun. I'm gonna be honest. It's not. It's not always fun, but it can be super exciting. So I think that's also like a balance, is that every time I get artwork, I'm very excited about it. It is not always fun to get artwork because I think you have to make a lot of choices. And I don't like making choices. So that's hard. We can get into that. But it is an exciting thing to do. And regardless of what you're. I think knowing what you're doing it for is the first step to getting into this process. Whether it's your cover, whether it's artwork, whether it's some other reason that you're commissioning art or. Or working with an artist. Knowing why you're doing it and how you are going to use that art is very important. Because another thing too about book cover design is that you may have hire a book cover designer, but then also hire an illustrator to make artwork for that cover. So then you're hiring two different people for one outcome that's very common, where you'll purchase, you'll like get a designer, an artist to make your illustration to go on your cover, and then you will give that illustration to a cover designer who. Who will make it into a book cover. I think it's very important to work with a cover designer that knows what a book cover should be. It's not just like slap some art on the front of a 8.25 by 5 inch, you know, image. There is a lot of skill behind how a book cover is designed and how it's going to attract the eye and the typography that's used. Um, so if you're going, if you're on a budget and you're not quite sure where to spend the money, spend it on a cover designer that knows what they're doing. Because people do judge books by their covers. So you need to. It's very important to have an eye catching COVID and someone that knows what they're doing. But like when I say an illustration for the COVID if you, if you pick up like I'm thinking of like almost any Ali Hazelwood cover just as an example, there's like an image of two characters on the front and it looks pretty and beautiful like it was drawn. That's an illustration.

Emily: 7:21

Yeah.

Rachel: 7:21

So the likelihood that that illustrator also designed and formatted the COVID is unlikely. There were two pieces at work there and I think a lot of people don't realize that. So depending on what genre you're writing in and what are the, what are the covers typically look like for that genre, you may need to hire different people or multiple people and that's going to be dependent on what is expected in your genre. Like in romance it is very common to have illustrated covers. And I think in fantasy it's getting very common. Specifically in cozy fantasy where you have like a very inviting, a very cute, a very beautiful cover. Usually there's an illustration on the front. I feel like I just went on a little tangent but to bring it back.

Emily: 8:13

No, I think that's really helpful because I didn't know that. I mean I've never had to design my own cover. So you know, my process was very, very different because it was from the other side where someone else was choosing the artist and choosing the, you know, the process for me. So it is. So I can imagine that people are wonder know if they're planning to go the trad route and planning to create their own covers for whatever reason or like be involved in that process that they might be asking like how do you find artists and cover designers to, to do that process? Can you talk a little bit about how you found yours and like what that process looks like? Cause I have no idea.

Rachel: 8:51

Yeah, so I found my cover designer on Instagram and I think this designer in particular happened to be. I love my designer. Her name is Sandra Maldo from Maldo designs and I will sing her praises for forever. Go work with Sandra. I loved her and, and she's done all four of my book covers and I have her book to do my next two book covers. But I found her on Instagram. She was running like a giveaway and someone sent it to me and was like, oh, you should try to get this giveaway. And then when I was looking at her portfolio, she had done the covers of some incredibly famous books that I had read and that I had really enjoyed and I, I recognized and knew. So I was like, oh damn. If, if this designer does, you know Emily Rath's book covers, then I should, I should, maybe she'll be in my price range. And then I looked at her prices and like she's very, I felt like incredibly well priced and I hired her to do the COVID So I found her on Instagram. If you type in like a social media search bar, book cover artist, book cover designer, you will find lists and lists and lists of designers. So that's where I always tell people to look first because I personally think you will get a great sense of their design style based on their Instagram feed. I mean that, that was the goal. I looked at Sandra's feed and I was like these are really I think beautiful covers. I think they are, they, I can see a direction for like my genre. So I, I want to try this. I also have one of my clients, one of my one on one clients has booked a designer through Reedsy before. On Reedsy there's a whole database of COVID designers of any, any book related person you're going to commission. There is a list on Reedsy. So I think that is a great place to look for people and they have a whole portfolio and they have their pricing on there. And so far so good. Like we haven't this one on one client and I haven't finished this process yet. But the designer seems really professional. The designer has an extensive portfolio and like has worked with names that we were familiar with so we went with that. One of my other one on one clients was on. There are websites that sell pre made covers. I also think we should talk about the difference between pre made and custom. A pre made cover is a cover that's already designed and when you're buying it, you are buying that design. And then the artist will change small things. Obviously they'll change your book title, they'll change like the author name and they might change little things but you're buying like a pre designed cover and they're generally like a 1:1 sell thing. So you're not going to get like a whole bunch of people have the same designed cover. But the reason that they're pre made is because when they're pre made they're, they're cheaper than getting like a custom cover. And if you like the design you can buy the pre made and it's done and then you don't have to go through like an extensive design process which I worked with on with Sandra where I had like four or five different revision passes and like we worked together to find the idea that I liked. I didn't quite know what I wanted and I wasn't finding anything that really spoke to me. So she designed a custom cover for me. And anyway going back to my one on one client, she was on a pre made website and bought a pre made and then found out that the illustrator for that pre made cover makes covers. So then she went to hire that illustrator in particular and then works now with that illustrator for her other book covers. There's also websites if you like Google cover design, I've like M I B L art, like meble art I think is what it's called, is a pretty popular one and they sell pre made and custom ones. There's a bunch of different like companies that do it that you can hire or you can hire from like a designer one one on one which is what I did and I found that person like I said through Instagram. So it's like Google it, research it, you'll find somebody. But what you're looking for in particular is a portfolio that matches your vibe, that like you can tell that this designer has experience in your genre, that they, that they know how to design eye catching covers, that it looks professional. I also think now AI is a big consideration. My designer does not use AI. That's what I want. I don't want AI, I don't want my designer to use AI. But there are a lot of artists out there that do. And so then you have to look through that. What are your thoughts on AI and do you want to hire somebody that works with AI or that could potentially put your cover through AI. So I think that's another consideration to make these days. Yeah, yeah. And when you're looking through portfolios I feel like it's helpful to look up some of the people that they've worked with before and see what their sales are like. Like because you can, I mean you can Google if you see a cover and you can see the title and the author, you can Google that and see is that book making sales? And if that book is not making sales, you know, can you articulate why? Is it because the COVID sucks or is it because they're this person's marketing it? Like, I think there's some inferring that you can do on if these are, are like effective covers. So like with my designer, I know the, what she had in the portfolio sells crazy. So I was like, well that's good for me. Like, oh, that's a check mark in Sandra's box. I want to work with her. I think that's all factors to consider. Does that answer your question?

Emily: 15:05

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I think that's really, really helpful for people who are first starting this out. It's like anything you can Google, but sometimes it's helpful to know like what direction to Google in and where, where to look. So I think that can, that's super helpful. So you know, on my Chad side where, you know, the company was, the publisher was commissioning somebody to do my, my cover, but I still had that process of, okay, what, what are other books in the genre that you, that, whose covers you like that you kind of want to go in that direction. And then they asked me, you know, some, some high level ideas of what, what direction do you want to go? Like, do we want to go face, do we want to go item, do we want to go design or you know, like abstract design? So I'm curious, like, what was the process with Sandra? How did you give her information about where you wanted to go? And I think it's really helpful to know that you had no idea where you wanted to go. How did you, how did you get there? Because I think a lot of people have that fear of like, I don't know what I want my cover to look like. How do you even get there when you're commissioning an artist when you need to tell them what to do?

Rachel: 16:13

Yeah. So I, I think this is going to be true of any artist, but having an idea in your head, at least of Vibes is going to be really helpful. I also think it helps you down the road because when I was talking earlier about like, I, some parts of commissioning art is really hard. It's because nothing looks like the way that I want it to look and that's really frustrating. But the more specific an idea that you have in your head, the easier it is to tell if it looks the way that you want it to look. So because I don't have any idea and I can't articulate what I want Something to look like. This is not, this is not sad. Not that I had ever, ever had any issues with Sandra, but that's not the artist's fault. If you can't tell them what you want and then they can't give you what you asked for, that's your fault. So I, I know that this is my fault, but when I worked with Sandra, I had like one idea. I guess I could. I guess I had two ideas. And this was the motif that I carried through the rest of my covers for this series. I wanted a piece of jewelry and I wanted some flowers. And when I commissioned, when I commissioned Sandra, I was not done with the book. So I also knew that whatever she ended up coming up with, I could write into the book if I wanted to. So I told her I wanted a necklace. And I kind of described for her what, what I thought the necklace looked like. And it was based off a necklace that is in Blood in the Water. And this was the idea that I had in mind of what I thought the necklace looked like. But I told her, I genuinely don't care what the necklace looks like. Can you please find a pretty necklace and then I'll write that necklace into the book? And she was like, sure. So. And I also told her roses, Roses were also important in Blood in the Water. So I wanted roses on the COVID And the first design that she came back with was like super zoomed in on a rose and it had the necklace in it, like nestled in between the petals. And it was, I felt like really hard to read, so I couldn't really. I was like, this is too muddy. I. It's. We've got the two things right. Like, I asked for roses and I asked for a necklace I don't really like. The necklace that she chose was pretty, but it, it wasn't exactly what I was looking for. And so I asked if she could find anything else and if we could zoom out on the roses and you know, can we show a different kind? And she came back and she was like, yes, we can. But what if I did like falling petals instead? Because that would show more movement. And I was like, that's a great idea. It doesn't have to be like a rose. I just wanted something that, that hinted at or that spoke to in part of the book. So then she came back with a different necklace, which was gorgeous. And I also needed this necklace to look like ridiculously expensive, like big ass jewels. Like it had to be money because of how rich the characters are in the book. So she came back and I was like, that's a perfect necklace. It is just diamonds, like, all diamonds. So then I wrote in the book what the necklace looked like because she had found one that really fit, like the image that I was looking for. And then she did the falling petals and it, it was like, oh, yes, this is the right direction. So we completely changed, like, the first cover. And then after she came back with this kind of new design, then we had multiple different tweaks to it where we tweaked, like, some of the letters. She had picked a font. I didn't tell her, like, what font to do, or I didn't tell her, like, how to. Like, the typography is how you put the typeface, like how you put the fonts on the COVID if you're not familiar with that. Not you, Emily, because you do this. But. But people that are listening. So typography is really important. So she picked all that and then was like, what do you think? And that was open for me to say, I don't like this font, or can it be spaced out a little bit more? So all that she could tweak. And we tweaked and changed and some of the details of the COVID we tweaked like the. If you. This is easier if you know what my book cover looks like. So if you, if you don't, you can go look it up. But like, the necklace kind of flows around the words. And we like changed part of how the necklace, like, came in front of a letter or went back behind a letter. So at that point we're just. The design was set and we were making little tweaks to it and we were moving petals around so we could maybe see the letters a little bit better. She did all of that for me and we probably went back three or four times before. I was like, yeah, that, that's it. That looks good. And then I, I had told her, this is going to be a four book series. I'm gonna hire you for all four of these covers. But do you feel like this could continue? Like, could we continue to translate this across multiple books? And she was like, yeah, definitely. So then when I went back to her for the second book, she already kind of knew we were gonna do the same thing. We were gonna do the falling petals. But on the second book we added a weapon. So then now every other books after that, I've had a piece of jewelry and I've had a weapon. So then the following books were about, like, getting the right again, the right piece of Jewelry, the right flow of the weapon. Because in only fools Russian, like the. We picked a knife and an engagement ring. So like a big ass ring. Again, these are rich people. So it had to be gaudy, like it had to be large. And we were trying to play even with like the perspective of the weapon and the ring because realistically, like those two things might not have looked like their proper size, but it worked better on the COVID to have it a little exaggerated. So we went back and forth between that and we changed the color of the petals. So I think like each, each book we kind of got better at working together and we refined those ideas. And then I think with the fourth book cover is not released. I haven't, you know what it looks like, but I haven't showed other people. And that one was also the same deal where like we were trying to find the right image, we were trying to find the right weapon, we were trying to find the right thing to fit on it. So we went back and forth more about like finding those pictures and not necessarily like the design of the product because that was already set. So all in all, I think this is a pretty standard process where you will give a designer your ideas. And as, as specific or as vague as they are, you're only helping yourself out if you can translate some sort of vibe or expectation. If you have specific ideas, great. I didn't because I, I was nervous, honestly. I didn't know what to choose and I was worried that I wouldn't choose right. So I wanted to rely on Sandra's expertise. But I gave her, you know, some things. She comes back with like a first version. And then most designers, I think this is important when you're booking a contract that you have worked in, how many edits you get. Sandra was a wonderful designer where we were going to edit it. Like, I don't think she had a set number in her contract. But I was also very cognizant of like, I don't, I'm not gonna be an asshole client where I'm asking you to change every single thing. Tweak, tweak, tweak like a thousand times. So also, if, if your designer does not have a set number, be respectful. Where this is taking up their time and effort. And so you don't wanna have a gajillion tweaks.

Emily: 23:47

Yeah.

Rachel: 23:48

So you're, when you give feedback, try to be very specific, try to ask for specific things because that's going to cut down on the amount of revisions. But I think three to four, like big Revisions or tweaks is pretty standard, and that means you're going back, like, three or four different times with edits and changes and tweaks. So knowing how many you have ahead of time is really helpful. Being able to communicate with your designer, like, I think this is in the right direction. Or, no, I really want to change it. They. We, Emily and I run into this. You and I run into this where, like, we don't care what changes we're making. Like, we just want a client to be happy. But people then feel like, well, I don't want to bother them by asking them to make changes. Like, it's the same thing. These artists usually don't mind about making changes. They're trying to make you happy. But you have to communicate, like, you have to express what you like or don't like about something specifically to. So that they know. But, yeah, I think having. I might have sent Sandra, like, a Pinterest board at the beginning. It's like, here's the vibe. What can you do? Yeah, the more references you can send, I think is helpful.

Emily: 25:05

Yeah. So flipping over to character arc, I feel like that's really. If you're doing character art or if you're having an illustration done for your cover, that can be really helpful. I ended up, when I did mine, I picked a scene from the book, and one of the artists wanted to see the scene, so I sent her the actual scene, like, you know, the text from the scene of the book, and then. And then folders of pictures. So pictures of, you know, what I thought they might be wearing, pictures of what I thought my characters looked like, pictures of the setting. And so I was able to give her a bunch of pictures that were sort of the inspiration behind what I wanted her to do. And then we talked a lot about pose. So she did pose sketches where she sent me, like, a bunch of sketches, and I got to pick which pose I wanted. And then from there, she went and did the. I mean, it was so close to my vision that I was like, great, we'll do these last tiny tweaks to, like, hair color and dress color, and then we're good. Um, so, yeah, having those references and an idea of what you're looking for and, like, as much information as you can give them, the closer it's going to be to your vision.

Rachel: 26:14

Yes. And then it's easy. It's also easier to follow up and say, well, actually, I really liked the hair of this reference, but I didn't like the. But I don't like the Nose of this reference, you know, like, I. You can do that kind of stuff. And I have. I feel like, over. So the. The first character art I ever commissioned, I have never used. I. I commissioned the piece. It did not turn out like what I wanted, and it was fine. Like, it was within this character's or it was in the artist art style. They delivered exactly what I asked for, but I just never ended up finding, like, it didn't fit my vibe, I guess, as a brand. Yeah. So I've never used it. Then I got better at commissioning art.

Emily: 27:03

Yeah.

Rachel: 27:03

And now I use it. And then I never used to ask for pose, and then they would send me back a couple different pose options. That's pretty common for. For this kind of character artwork, like you said. But the latest one I commissioned, which I got, that I haven't sent to. I got. I got it in my inbox.

Emily: 27:22

Oh, I'm excited.

Rachel: 27:23

Last night. I'll text it to you right now. But I asked for this pose specifically because I had this in my mind. And I was like, this is the pose that I want. And she killed it. She knocked it out of the park. And I was like, it's so hot. It looks so good. It's not. It's not. Not safe for work or anything. It just like, oh, my God, you guys, wait. Just wait. Like, the. The specific pose, I was. I found a couple references on Pinterest, and I was like, I want this, and I want his hand here. And she did it. But previously, I'd never asked for that. So then the artist came back with, like, pose choices, and then I chose the pose, and that. That worked out well. But this piece, I'm very excited about. It needs, like, final rendering, but it's almost done. But, yeah, I think, like, providing. Providing artwork that you can get for examples on skin tone, hair, eye color, whatever it is that you want. And Pinterest has a lot of different options. Like, you can ask for crazy things, and Pinterest will have character inspiration for that. Then you can send it to an artist, and they'll make you something that you like.

Emily: 28:47

Yeah.

Rachel: 28:48

But the. The pri. I want to talk a little bit about, like, pricing for a second, because pricing, there's a wide range, and a lot of it depends on. It's all over the map. So I think, like, going into it, know what your budget is before you look for somebody, because I can almost guarantee that if you're. If you're looking for an artist and then looking at your prices, you may be disappointed. But if you have an idea of price range that you. That you're comfortable spending, and then you go look for an artist within that range. I think you'll set your. Your own expectations, like, a little bit better. But the more detail, the more that you include on the piece, it's just going to be more expensive. And I've bought anything in the range from$150 to up to like $1,000. And my $1,000 piece of art has all six of my characters with a very detailed background with a lot of, like. That was a lot of work. Cause I had a lot of things involved in that. But it doesn't have to be that range. And then I even got a quote from an artist that was much more expensive than that. But that was not my budget. So I was like, your art is gorgeous. I am poor. I can't afford. That's not the artist's fault. Like, I. That's another thing too, when you're going into this is you're gonna see a range of products, prices that is not on the artist. You need to know what your budget is.

Emily: 30:22

Yeah.

Rachel: 30:24

I think some of these very popular, like, gorgeous pieces are very expensive. But when I got my books out and I was making money from my books, I just used book money to buy more art. So, yeah, you can build up to some of this.

Emily: 30:41

Yeah. And I think it's helpful for people to know sometimes artists book up ahead of time. They're not always open for commissions. So if you really have your eyes set on somebody, it can be helpful to get on their schedule ahead of time. Just like any. Any artist. Right. And then, yeah, some of them don't post their prices. So you. They expect you to ask. And it's totally fine if you say that's too much. Right. Like, if they're not posting their prices, it's because they're expecting you to ask. So don't hesitate to ask. I think when I was looking for that piece, that last piece that I wanted to do because I. I kind of waited too long, and I was like, I really want this piece. When my. When Crimson comes out, um, and so I, you know, life got in the way. So I was a few months out, and I was like, oh, I gotta find someone who could do this fast. So I asked around to a bunch of people asking for prices and timeline to try to find someone who could do that. And it worked out. It ended up working out great. But, yeah, that's an important consideration too.

Rachel: 31:38

Yes, that is very important. Um, you can get on. Wait Lists. But there's like, one artist that I've wanted to buy art from for a very long time, and her commissions have been closed for, like, more than a year. So they. People book up really fast. Some of. Some of the more popular artists. And again, I'm finding them on Instagram. This is the way that I'm finding them. Or I'm also finding, like, Brit. Brit K. S, who's an author that works with us and that's been on the podcast before. I love her artwork. So I go troll her art page. Yeah. Like, I, like, look at her page and I'm like, who are your artists? And then I'll go to that.

Emily: 32:13

The queen of commissioning art.

Rachel: 32:15

Right. So, like, that's how I find a lot of the artists that I use is that I find them through, like, other authors that have purchased their art. And I'm like, that's beautiful. Give me that. But. But if they're. If they don't have their prices posted or if you have additional questions, it's part of the process. So don't feel embarrassed. If you email and then someone comes back with their prices and you're like, thank you so much. I need to find a different range or a different timeline. So when I'm reaching out, I'm always asking, what is your price range for the. This amount of characters, for color and for a background and for. Usually I do at least half body. That all is part of it. And then how many characters I want in the piece. And when I'm asking for those things, they come back with like, well, here's how much it would be. Let me know. And then if you're like, oh, I need a different timeline.

Emily: 33:11

Cool.

Rachel: 33:11

I need a different price range. Cool. But you're not offending anybody. This is how the business works. But it's always better to be, like, upfront about it and communicate about it than like, ghost people or. Or like, get started on something. Because many people will. That's another part of this that I should add. Some artists will ask for a deposit to secure your spot. Very normal. Some artists won't like this piece that I just sent you. That artist. That artist said that I don't have to pay her until the piece is complete. She's the only artist that I've ever worked with that has had that process. Every other artist that I've worked for has asked either for a deposit or for the full amount once we confirm the pose sketch. So then, like, we get the pose locked in, and then that's when you Pay, like, for how much it is. So different artists have different processes too, which you can ask for. Like, what. When are you expecting payment? How much? At what point do you want this? Or, you know, can I pay it in advance or do you want to wait until it's over? Um, they have different preferences, too.

Emily: 34:28

And that's. Yeah, that's all to protect them. To protect you. They, you know, they've done this a million times with lots of people. They know how to protect their own boundaries. So that's where that's coming from. And super normal.

Rachel: 34:40

Yeah, very. Uh, what else?

Emily: 34:44

Anything else?

Rachel: 34:45

Geez. We were like this.

Emily: 34:48

If you've been thinking about it, I feel like it's a. It's a really good way to. Sorry, can you hear him?

Rachel: 34:56

That's okay. Not a big deal. Hey, guys that are listening, everybody. Not guys, girls, most of you. It doesn't matter. Friends that are listening to this podcast. Did you know we have real lives that also exist around us? We have husbands, we have children. We have lives that exist around us at the same time we're recording things. Okay.

Emily: 35:16

We're.

Rachel: 35:16

We're cool on that. Okay. All right.

Emily: 35:18

All right. We're cool. We're being. We're being real about it. Okay. No, the last thing I was gonna say is everyone should do this. If you've been thinking about it, if you've been on the fence, if you've been eyeing someone's Instagram page and thinking about ordering art, you do not have to wait until you're published. You do not have to wait until you get an agent. You do not. I wish I hadn't waited so long. I knew a lot of friends who bought artwork for themselves before, you know, they had those big milestones met. And I was always jealous of them. And I was like, why don't I just do it? It can feel like you can't invest that money in your own happiness. And so you've, like, had some kind of payoff. And I think that's silly. So my last advice would just be go for it.

Rachel: 35:58

I agree. I completely agree. And I think, like, when. When you start to treat this whole process like a business where, like, you're. You're pursuing a goal, you want to sell books, maybe you want to make a career out of this. Buying artwork is a tax write off. It is an expense of your business. It is something that you can also use to promote your business. So when I stopped thinking of it as, like, this is a very large purchase, and I instead was like, this is an investment into selling books. For me, that gave me a lot of permission. I think regardless of whether or not you want to sell books and market them, it doesn't matter. Matter. I agree with you. You should do it to. To have fun with it because you deserve it and it's fun to do. But if you do need a little bit of permission. This is part of book marketing, truly. And like, yeah, I use it all the time in my. In my graphics, on my TikToks. I use. I try to use this artwork everywhere because it's going to make my money back.

Emily: 37:09

Yeah.

Rachel: 37:09

Like, people will. I mean, I don't. I am the type of reader. I think many readers are the same. If you see a good piece of art, you're like, dang, I want to read that book. So it can do a lot for you.

Emily: 37:24

Yeah. So it's worth it.

Rachel: 37:26

Do it, go for it, go for it. And last thing I know we covered a lot today, but this is a process that is. I think I learned a lot by word of mouth. You. You can ask your friends, like, you can DM other authors. I mean, I think I had DM'd an author that I didn't know who had worked with an artist that I wanted to work with. And I was like, hey, I saw that you had this art. Did you like the process? You know, did you feel like this person, like, delivered on the piece that you asked for? I think it's gorgeous. But was it a good process? And I asked that author, who I didn't know, and she then talked to me about, like, what it was like. So I. There's a lot of, like, timidity sometimes around asking questions. I don't know of any. I have not met one author who is not willing to help another author. So if you're confused or you want. You need some advice, like, talk to the people around you.

Emily: 38:31

Well, if you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.

Rachel: 38:37

Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep readers flipping pages all through the night.

Emily: 38:45

Link in the show notes. We'll see you there.