Story Magic

122 - Writing good love triangles

• Golden May

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Today, Emily & Rachel talk about love triangles!

What you’ll learn from this episode: 

  • our personal preferences
  • tying love triangles back to character
  • avoiding common pitfalls

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Emily:

Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.

Rachel:

I'm Rachel.

Emily:

And I'm Ellie.

Rachel:

And today we're talking about love triangles. Yay. What are your thoughts on love triangles? Are you about them? Are you not about them?

Emily:

Love them. I love them. I love them a lot.

Rachel:

Why is that? Why do you love them?

Emily:

I think because when they're done well, they're such an interesting character exploration. Right. Because it's this question of, like, is, like, which person is right for you? And, like, why are they right for you? And I find that very. I like character stuff. Like, I'm constantly interested in, like, the. The flaws that characters have and what makes them human and all of that, what makes them unique. And I feel like love triangles bring that out in people, and they're just fun.

Rachel:

I think they're fun. They're. They can be really angsty. They can be really tense. There can be a lot of tension.

Emily:

You get double the romance.

Rachel:

Double the romance. I think. I think if they're done well, I don't think they're done well a lot. So I'm not a big fan of them. I. Not anymore. I think when I was a teenager, they were, like, my favorite thing when I was reading, you know, like, the Hunger Games and Twilight and, like, all those books of our teenage years that. Not that they were done particularly successfully in, like, Twilight, but I mean, that tension, like the Hunger Games, I think, is done really well because it ends up being a character thing. But that. That age, the. The age of the love triangle, I think, really blossomed in our youth.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

And it became it. It was so successful in, like, in almost every single book I picked up. I was like, if it doesn't have any romance, I don't want it. Put it away. But then I think it became so popular that authors lost sight of its function and used it as a dramatic inclusion. Like, it was there for the drama. It wasn't there for any other reason. And then they became, like, really tiring to me, and that's why I ended up in. In the why Choose? Genre. Cause I was like, I don't.

Emily:

This.

Rachel:

Why do you have to choose between one or the other? Especially if this isn't, like, a valuable choice, don't do it, you know? So I was like, you can have them all.

Emily:

Take them all.

Rachel:

Well, I got to the point where I was like. I was like, literally, the only reason that you're making me choose is because you've decided that I Have to choose one. It wasn't like, it wasn't a character thing. Do you know what I'm trying to say? Like, there was no valuable reason to choose one over the other. So it was just like, they're both great. Choose both. Both. Or like, why are we having. They end up becoming, like, drama for drama's sake.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

To me, sometimes if they're not done well, and I don't enjoy that, it feels like once I crossed over to the dark side, I was like, these are pointless.

Emily:

I agree. When they're not done well, they are just. They tend to be just for drama, for drama's sake. And there's no reason, like, if there's no, like, story reason for it, it's kind of like, ugh, why are we doing this? Like, why are we. Why are we having this debate when there's other things going on that might be more important? I. I think. I do think it's a little bit nostalgia for me for that time period of Twilight and the Hunger Games and all those kind of.

Rachel:

They were so good back then.

Emily:

They were so fun. But I also think it's fun that age, the age that we were reading those books.

Rachel:

Exactly.

Emily:

Was particularly. I think it. I think, especially in young adult, if it's done well, it can be an exploration of, like, who do you want to be? And is the. How do the people that you decide to surround yourself with represent who you want to be or who you're becoming that you might not want to be? Right. And I do think that that is a very valuable question in that age group particularly. And so I. I don't feel like I see it quite as much in at least the stuff that I'm reading. But I don't read. I'm not. I don't read as much romance as you do. I read other genres more prominently. So, yeah, so I. I might just not be coming across them.

Rachel:

I don't think it's as common in adult romance, and I think that is because a love triangle as a character thing is a very YA situation. Like a very, who am I? Who do I want to be? I'm the representation of a love triangle in young adult is what life are you choosing?

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

And when you're more established in adult, you've moved past that. You know, you've moved past this kind of these questions of identity and these questions of values. Not that those don't exist in adult, but it's like the buildings remind of. You know, I've got to figure out who I am and what life I choose. Like, that is a YA theme, and it's just not as common in adult. And I also think that, like, in adult. And this. This feels, as I say it, a sweeping statement, and I don't intend it to be, but I do think in adult, romance is expected to have more spice. But then when you introduce a love triangle and you're having spice with two people, there's a lot of misogynistic critique about, like, there's a lot of internalized, oh, well, you can't be. You can't be sleeping with two people at once because that's cheating. And so that. Then that's how why choose happens where like, well, it's acceptable if you're in a relationship with both, but if you're just trying to decide between two people and you're having spicy scenes with both people, then I think there's a lot of critique on the female in that dynamic, and I think it's incredibly unfair. So I do think there's a lot of people that. That don't bridge that. Like, that don't attempt that, because I don't think it's very well received.

Emily:

Yeah. This is bringing up memories of the conversation that we had after you read one of my drafts of Molten. So spoilers for my duo, a little bit of spoilers for my duology. But. So if you haven't read Crimson Curtain yet and want to, I don't know, skip ahead a couple minutes. But. But the second book introduced a character that I had always wanted to introduce. Like, he was in the book even when in my brain, it was one book mostly, I think, because of what he represented. Like, Fearn is a. She's a cod woman. Right. And she's like, uses people. She manipulates people for a living. And I wanted there to be a character who represented that path for her and like, sort of fed that path for her. And so that's where Asley came from. And of course, he's very different from Bregan, but at that point, Bregan thinks that Frieren is dead, so they're very much not together. But I remember having that discussion with you of like, do should I or should I not allow them to go all the way because of, you know, how that would be received. And I think that you're right. Like, that's a very. As soon as. When it's just, oh, feelings, Right. Feelings for someone and like, you. Pecks on the cheek. Right. That's a very different conversation than, you know, when you're having sex with multiple People who don't know that you're having.

Rachel:

Sex with multiple people.

Emily:

That's where it gets complicated.

Rachel:

It gets complicated. And like, I think there's, there's a lot of judgment and, and not to say that it's right or wrong. Like, I 100% think that fear in. And any woman should be able to have sex, sexual exploration that makes her happy. But then you bring in, oh, social critique in society. And like, I think there are expectations in the adult romance genre that that doesn't happen. But I, I don't think it's not done like it has been done. It has been done. I think it's possible to be done well. Not saying that you weren't doing it well, but I think that's like part of the discussion of like the genre expectation that like in adult romance, if you're going to have a love triangle, how are you executing on the physical intimacy and how aware are the other characters and what are, what are the societal expectations of the world? Because I also think, you know, I've read some fantasy where like, it's established that sex is not a big deal like every, you know, we're, we're very free with our physical intimacy in like fantasy worlds. So then there's not like a weight of like, oh, I'm having. I'm in a love triangle with two other people and I might be having sex with both of them. And like, it's okay because our society doesn't have this critique and we're allowed to explore and like, there would be no judgment. But in like, our world, in our, in, in real life world, yeah, there would be judgment about that and there would be judgment also, like, hurt.

Emily:

I mean, I, I feel like there's judgment and sexism and all of that, but there's also like, given the rules of the world and the expectations, right. Fearn is allowing Bregan to think she's dead. If he knew that she was off having sex with someone else, he would be very upset about it. Right. And so the readers know he would be very upset if he didn't care, then the readers wouldn't care. Right. And so you have to kind of think about like, if the other characters knew what this character was doing in the moment, how would they feel about it? How are you going to deal with that? Because, like, that's the kind of stuff that festers. And I think that's true of like any kind of secrets in any relationships, whether it's, you know, sexual intimacy or not. Right. It's the rules of what's expected in a society to be respectful and loving towards other people? And if you're breaking those rules, then people are going to judge your characters.

Rachel:

You're so right. And I think jealousy is a big part of a love triangle, especially in YA because, you know, Edward and Jacob were so jealous of each other. And, like, PETA and Gail were so jealous. I mean, Peeta's just, like, perfect. He's like, I just love you, Katniss. But, like, Gail's jealous, right? Like, there's. There's jealousy there. And then if you're translating that jealousy into adulthood, how are you navigating that jealousy? And, like, what are the attachments and the feelings and the hurt and the expectations? Because I think it's hard. Harder to do an adult. Yeah, a lot harder to do that. You know, when you're in that YA space, jealousy is very natural. Like, teenagers are jealous of everyone because. Because they don't know what they. They don't have their identity yet. They don't know who they want to be. They don't. They don't have, like, the core foundational beliefs that you end up creating and, you know, creating that foundation to get into adulthood. Not that jealousy doesn't exist in adulthood. It absolutely does and can be even more bitter and vicious. But I mean, like, that's a very natural space in a YA age group to be exploring. I have feelings for two people, and they also know that. And they're jealous of each other. Like, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Emily:

So, okay, so what does make a successful love triangle? You answer first because you're like, I don't like them. So when do you like them? What makes them successful for you?

Rachel:

Um, okay, well, just to build a little bit off of this adult dynamic. I think a lot of the conflict that a love triangle creates can be easily overcome when adults have full agency. So I also think that, like, an adult's decisions are different than a young adult's decisions, and the options that they have available to them are usually different. So I don't tend to like them an adult because I'm like, you guys are adults. You can do whatever you want. Why are we having conflict about this? So that's number one. I think when conflict feels, like, too dramatic and we have the full ability to solve this conflict either through communication or through, like, opening up a relationship dynamic, then I get frustrated because I'm like, there. This conflict is imagined. It's not real. It's. It's drama to make me. To make me wish I had to choose between the two of you, and I don't like that. But in young adult, where, you know, your world is a lot smaller, I think that it's. It's easier for that conflict to be believable. So I think the conflict between the triangle has to be believable. Like, what. What is the conflict between the two of them? Why do we have two different options to begin with? And I think where love triangles fail is when the two options are just options. They're not, like. They're not, like, representative of two different paths. And this is what you had said before is like, it's not like a character thing. It's just, oh, here are two pretty cool guys, and I'm gonna make them both perfect. So it will be really hard to choose. Like, that's. That's where I'm like, this is dumb. Don't choose. They're both really great guys. Have them both. And that's why I, like, why choose? But if it's. If it's like a character choosing between two versions of their life or two paths that they can step into and they have to decide who do I want to be? And their two romantic options represent those two paths, I think that's when the conflict is meaningful, and I think that's when it relates back to the character flaws and their growth and their arc of change. So I think they're more successful when not only do all three characters feel dynamic and three dimensional, but also the conflict between the two paths is developed and real and actually means something. To pick one character. To pick Peeta or was a different future for Katniss than to pick Gail. And. And ultimately we picked Peeta because we realized Gail was bad news. Right. Like, the. At the beginning don't come at us. Right? Like when everybody came at Ali Hazelwood a couple months ago for something that was totally reasonable. But no, like the. Between PETA and Gail. The more we uncovered about their characters and the more that Katniss determined who she wanted to be, to pick Gale was to go against her values, which she had spent three points fighting for. To pick Peeta was to recognize what she wanted the future to be and who she wanted to be, because she very easily could have picked Gale if she wanted to blow up the entire world, which is what Gale actually tried to do. Like, Gale's choices were representative of a world that Katniss did not want to be in, so she. Peeta. Because Peeta was the future that she wanted and, like, the hope that she had been fighting for. And that made sense. Even though, like, I. I was team Gale at the beginning, I was like, gail's so much cooler than Peeta. But then when Gale went off the defend and we were like, you're actually pretty crazy turning.

Emily:

You're turning into the enemy.

Rachel:

Yeah, right. You're turning into the enemy. Like, that made sense for Gale's character arc, and it also represented a different future for Katniss. So, you know, Suzanne Collins choosing to do that with Gale's character made like it was making a point. You know, we go back to story point so often. You know, Gale and Peeta were the binary of the story point, where Peeta represented the story point and Gale represented the flaw. So then when Katniss chose Peeta, it, like, made sense for her character arc to do that.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

Over to you.

Emily:

Yeah, I mean, same. Same. I mean, that's. So that's how I developed the Reagan and Asli sort of quote unquote love triangle. Right. Because I do think there's. You can have two more stark paths, I think, in ya because of how. Yeah, don't go quite as far with the. The intimacy of it. I do think an adult, it's harder. And oftentimes you need to kind of make it clear who the main one is and then the other one's like a temptation that they're fighting. But I was like, it's never gonna feel like she's actually gonna pick athlete. It's more just like, what is the temptation representing? And so for me, I was like, okay, he represents the internal obstacle, belief, the flaw that she has, and, like, the. The negative arc path that she could go down as a con artist, as somebody who lies to people, who thinks that. That, you know, by pretending to be someone else, that she can find true love. Right. Like, all of that. And then there's Bragan, who's sort of the one who's always pushed her to be a better person and, like, given her a vision of, like, her being a better version of herself. And so she's kind of in that book struggling with, like, can I be that person that I've always wanted to be? I don't know. And so I wanted there to be. Especially since he thinks she's dead. For, like, most of the book, I needed there to be, like, more sort of tension. Like, I needed there to be some more conflict. I need there to be more characters on the page for her to interact with. And so that's kind of how I brought him in. But I do think that that my advice for anyone considering a love Triangle, no matter the genre, would be to ask yourself, like, what is my character's internal obstacle? Sort of flawed belief? And how could I create, like, which of the characters represents that path? Right. And they could be someone like Asli, who represents that from the beginning, or they could be someone like Gail, who's who over time is corrupted by the internal obstacle belief right at the beginning. He's fine. I. You know, he's my favorite in book one, but it's the fact he allowed himself to be corrupted over time by that flawed sort of side of the story. And is Katniss going to let that happen to her too? Right. That's the question. And so you can have it be a steadfast. They represent the internal obstacle from the beginning, or you can have them kind of sort of delve off the deep end into it. And then you want that character who represents the story point and same thing. They can represent it from the beginning, which you could argue Peeta kind of does. And so he's just steadfast. This is the lesson Katniss needs to learn throughout the whole series, and that's what he represents. Or you could have a character who learns that lesson and wants your character to learn that alongside them and have a more dynamic path through the story. I think either of those are great options, but you definitely want to be thinking about those paths. Right. The right path, the wrong path. How can you create conflict? And the conflict is not really between those two characters, it's inside of your character.

Rachel:

Yes, exactly.

Emily:

Conflict of which, which life do I want to lead? Who do I want to become? Um, I think that's where the. The juicy conflict that makes it. That makes the love triangle successful comes from. You can also have jealousy and external conflict, and they can fight each other and, like, whatever you want. Right. You can have all that external stuff, but if that internal conflict is. It's gonna fall flat. We're gonna be like, why is this here?

Rachel:

Yeah, I'm thinking of, like, you know, relationships that developed really well over time. I'm thinking of the Throne of Glass series where, like, Aelin starts. I mean, Salida is her name in the first book. Her real name's Aelin. Sorry for the spoilers, everybody, but if you haven't read Throne of Glass by now, that's on you. I think it's an incredible series and it's seven books long. And in the first book, it's classic love triangle. Prince Commander. Very classic. Who's it going to be? Is she going to choose, like, the cocky Prince or is she going to choose the stoic commander and then, like, plot twist? Neither of them are her final romance options. So I think that that's actually done very well over the arc of the entire series, because Aelin, in the first book, it is very ya. It's this kind of bridge of new adult, young adult, who is our protagonist here, but she plays into the Aelin herself as the main character is really trying to find who is the person that enables her to become the queen she needs to be. She doesn't meet that person until book four. But in the first books, she does have romantic relationships with other characters, and we have this. This triangle feeling of who are we gonna pick? It's also very obvious why the path that she does go down doesn't work out. Like, Kale is that. That's how I spell his. Say his name. Kale.

Emily:

Me too. I love so much. I was so sad.

Rachel:

I know, but, like. But then there's this moment where I remember, like, the other love Tr saying to the man that she chose first, like, who did you think she was? Like, they have this whole conversation where Kale is like, I don't want her to be. I don't want her to kill people. And, like, her job is that she's an assassin.

Emily:

Is Dorian say that? Yeah. They're like best friends, too. Classic ya, Right?

Rachel:

They're best friend. Classic ya. And he's like, who do you think she was? Like, this is who she was the whole time. I'm paraphrasing. But it's a really interesting dynamic where she has these options. Neither of them are right for her. We. We all know this, but we still feel the tension of who does she want to be? That's the question in those books. And, like, if she was with Cha, she would not have been the queen she needed to be because Chael would have held her back. And if she was with Dorian, she would not have been the queen she was going to be because Dorian had his own set of problems and she needed to be a little bit more. More mature than that. And then they both went on to have, like, incredible character arcs of their own and found their own relationship partners while she moved forward and eventually found her soulmate, the one and only Rowan. And, like, we cannot. Rowan is perfect.

Emily:

He's too perfect.

Rachel:

Well, you know what? What's really interesting when you.

Emily:

Personal preference, guys.

Rachel:

No, I think because he punches her in the face, and I love that. Of course he does, because he meets her and he's like, you're a spoiled Little princess and I hate you, and he punches her in the face, but he helps her to become the queen she's meant to be. So then the second, like books four through seven, I don't even think they kiss until, like, book the end of book five. Like, the slow burn between the two.

Emily:

Of them and Rhys are just carbon copies of each other. Come at me, please.

Rachel:

No. Everybody, I think Rhys is a step down from Rowan.

Emily:

From Rowan?

Rachel:

Really? Yes, absolutely.

Emily:

I read Reese.

Rachel:

I think Rhys is too perfect. I. He's fine. Like, don't get me wrong, I like him. I think Rowan's better.

Emily:

Okay. But this is why I love that series. That's my favorite Sarah J. Maas series. Yeah, the first book is like, meh, mostly because I'm not a huge YA person and I feel like it's very ya, but after, it's absolutely brilliant and it only gets better book by book. And the reason is because she's so, so, so good at relationships. She's really good in that series. The characters are very three dimensional and they all have very specific wounds. And even the people they don't end up with end up teaching them something. And so there's a lot of, like, people trying out relationships that don't work. But the reason, like, there's a reason for it. They each learn something from those failed relationships. And then when they finally meet their the right partner, it's like, oh, this is why this person is right for me. Because this is the wound ins that they're helping heal and we're completing each other and helping each other grow. And I just think that it's so well done in that series over like, so many books. And it's just, it's fun to watch relationships, like, you know, they try it, they fail here, they break out, they grow, and then they find someone new, and then they fail at that. And it's just so, it's so fun. And I really, really love that series for that reason. So if you want to study love triangles and just the complexity of why relationships do and don't work, I would highly recommend that series. I agree.

Rachel:

And you know, we say this so often, but I, I think it's again, very true that if you want to write a love triangle, you need to read books with love triangles in them and you need to understand why they work and why they don't work. Because I don't think this is successful a lot of the time. And there's many reasons for that. And as we've talked about, I think there's A difference between young adult and adult, yada, yada, yada. But whatever it is, if you want to do this well, you need to read books where they're done well and books where they're not done well so that you can analyze that and study it and determine, why did this work? And in another book, why did it not work? Because it. It's another one of those tropes that I think people throw into books to, like, make them interesting. But then if they're not done well, it's a failure. It's like, it does not. It can be very frustrating to the reader. So it's like. It's like a hot button trope to me, you know, like, oh, we have a shadow daddy. We have enemies to love. Like, it's one of those tropes that, like, every. Everyone kind of, like, has opinions about. And they are used frequently because they're drama. But then it's. It's more nuanced than just, I have to pick between two people. There's, like, craft behind it, um, and intentionality behind it. So just read a lot of them.

Emily:

Yeah, read a lot of them. And when we say, you know, what works and doesn't work, really, you're just analyzing by what you like and don't like, right?

Rachel:

For sure, yes.

Emily:

Like, it's subjective, so just kind of want to remind people of that. Right? There's a right or wrong when you're doing this. There's just what the effect that you want to have on your readers. And so the best way to gauge how to do that is to go read love triangles stories with love triangles. Look at the ones that work for you. Ask yourself, why? Why do I like this so much? And then look at the ones that aren't working for you and ask, why do I not like this so much? Right. And then start to use that information to inform how you want to craft yours for your readers.

Rachel:

Exactly.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

And I think this is too, a trope that people usually tend to like or not like, you know, that's why we started this conversation with, like, you like them. I usually don't. And that's. That is a preference, right? Like, you're not gonna hit every reader's most favorite thing in every book, and that's okay. So you will. If you choose to do a trope like this, you will have people that be like, oh, I don't really like love triangles.

Emily:

Okay.

Rachel:

Like, that's just gonna happen. Just like some people. Like, I don't like, why choose like, okay, it's not for you. So just know that, like, even if you're doing all this study and you're and you're being really intentional with your choices, it's okay that you are going to come across some readers, that it's just not for them. That's how the subjectivity of books works.

Emily:

Yeah. 100%. Cool.

Rachel:

Cool.

Emily:

If you want to build a successful, fulfilling, and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.

Rachel:

Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.

Emily:

Link in the show notes. We'll see you. It.