Story Magic

120 - How do you know when you're done?

• Golden May

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0:00 | 26:14

Today, Emily & Rachel talk about knowing when your draft/book is done.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

  • Being confident in your choice
  • At what point should you get outside feedback
  • Different paths have different questions to consider

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Rachel: https://www.instagram.com/bookcoachrachel/

Emily: https://www.instagram.com/ebgoldenbooks/

Emily:

Foreign. Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.

Rachel:

I'm Rachel.

Emily:

And I'm Emily.

Rachel:

And today we are talking about when you're done finishing up the book, the drafts, getting ready to query, pitch, publish. How do you know you're done Done.

Emily:

With whatever stage you're at, Whatever that means.

Rachel:

How do you know you're there?

Emily:

Yeah, we get this question. I feel like we get this question regularly from people.

Rachel:

Yeah, I mean, we were just. Before we started recording, we were just like, haven't we answered it? Like, we have we not talked about this? We get. This is not an uncommon question.

Emily:

Yeah, we. We got it in the Slack channel a few months ago and then we actually got it last week, the week before, from one of our new tenacious writing members who was trying to figure out if her manuscript was ready to send to Beta readers. And, like, she wasn't sure. And so we get into lots of different forms of this. This. There's the when are you done with your first draft? There's the when are you done enough to query? There's the winner. You've done enough to self publish, right? Like, how do you know? So, I mean, we could take. That's kind of a three pronged question. I probably have different advice for all three of those, I guess.

Rachel:

I think with like, yeah, well, I agree. I would have different advice for all three of those. But my main thing is, no, you're done. When you say you're done, I mean, like, nobody is gonna. Nobody's like, no, you're not. You must keep going. Like, this isn't ready. And like, no, I don't. Nobody does that. So at the end of the day, that was like a big lesson personally for me to realize, especially in the publishing arena of, like, you just decide, sorry. And this whole industry is built so much on the approval of other people that that's a really difficult place to be to just decide. Yep, I'm done. When to at least to publish traditionally, like, no, you actually have to get picked. Like, you don't determine that. So. So there's like a disconnect too, I think, between when you say it's ready and what you expect other people to tell you in response. Yeah, but. But ultimately you're done when you decide you're done. That's how it is. So the more confident you can be about that decision, I think is helpful.

Emily:

But yeah, and I guess that's where my advice would differ between the three is like, the Things to consider and think about before you might say you're ready to be done. But you're right. I mean, ultimately you're the only one who gets to determine that you're done. And it's very subjective. There's no rubric, no one is going to be like a plus. You're done now. Exactly, you graduated. Here's your diploma. Like that's not going to happen.

Rachel:

That's why I think I was just talking about this with one of my one on one clients is like, this is why we talk so much about, you know, knowing who you're writing for and like making yourself proud with your work and, and feeling really grounded in self love versus like the hustle and the inner critic voices is because it is so subjective. So for you to confidently say that you're done, you have to be coming from these more healthy start places, like from this, this, you know, really grounded stance. I suppose that's why you do it. So if you're feeling like, oh, I'm proud of this, it makes me happy. This is what I was telling my client. My, I think my books are fucking hilarious. So that pleases me. I'm done. That's all that I want. I just want people if I like my books, cool. Like, so I think if you, you're not like, okay, I'm done when someone else is publishing it. Yeah, I'm done when it makes me happy. But even that has to be like, okay, is this like a, an inner critic happiness or a self love happiness? Because when it, I'm done when I'm proud of it, I'm done when, you know, I, it hits all the boxes of what I want in a book. Like that's when I consider when things are done and then like I'm ready to put it in the world from that publishing standpoint. But it can't be. But if you say like, you know, I'm done with it and then hopefully it will be selected and picked and if, if that does happen, you're not done with it, friends, you gotta go back in. There's even more to do.

Emily:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let's, let's do, let's talk about first drafts first. Sure. Because I think this one might have the easiest answer. Like how do you know, how do you know when your first drafts are done?

Rachel:

When I say they are.

Emily:

The end. Period.

Rachel:

The end. No, I'm serious because I think people are like, you know, I am, I have become in my writing process a really big fan of placeholder text where like I don't give. I don't care about, you know, descriptions or I'll skip like, a little bit of an action scene or whatever, because I, you know, I don't love writing action scenes. So I'll put a placeholder text so I'll get to the end of the draft. And there are some people who are like, well, that draft is not done until you go back and you fill in all the parts you skipped and you. And you plug every tiny hole and you. You make sure that every scene is complete. And I'm like, who decides that? Nobody. It's done when I say it's done, done. So if that's your first draft and it's done, cool. I don't think there's a. There's no measurement and no one's sitting on your shoulder being like, liar. You're. You're cheating. It's not done. Like, no one does that. First drafts are just first drafts, even.

Emily:

If you're hiring an editor. So I have. I have a client right now that I'm doing coaching with. And she. We were going to start the coaching when she finished her first draft, and she, you know, she was like, do I go back and, like, fill out all the brackets and all the scenes? Like, there were some scenes that she'd summarized and, you know, just to. To keep moving because she didn't know exactly what she wanted to happen, all that stuff. And, you know, we talked and I was like, don't. Like, you don't need to do that. It's not going to trip me up. And it didn't. Like, I read the book. I knew what was going on. I was able to follow the summaries. I was like, I can see what you're doing. Where. What she managed to do with that first draft was get it to a point where she knew enough to start thinking through what the second draft was going to look like. Like, to me, that's the only, like, quote unquote requirement, right? Is that you gotta be like, you're done whenever you're ready to start thinking about the next draft. And that doesn't mean act one is done and you haven't written the best of the book and you wanna start over. Right? No, this means, like, you have a complete. A complete thing to work with, even if it has holes and summaries and lots of telling and, like, it could be as messy as you want it to be, but it's ready when you are ready to move on. I had another client who we had worked on a draft Together. And she. We were kind of talking through revisions as we were getting towards the end of the draft, and it was like there were all these things we wanted to change. Right. And so she was like, well, do I go back now that I've written the last couple scenes of the book? Do I go back and fill those holes and, like, try to tweak those storylines? And we just kind of had this conversation where it was like, what's the point? You know, like, we know what we want to do with the next draft. Let's just go to the next draft, and then we can kind of see how it all fits together. You don't have to, like, have it. The only reason to have it exist is if you, for yourself, need to have lived through those moments on the page to like. To, like, have it in your head so you're ready to tackle the second draft. And so we did end up picking, like, three scenes that she had skipped over that she needed to live through to kind of have. Have an idea of what she was trying to do. And we just wrote them messily and then called it good and moved on from there. So you really don't have to overthink it, guys.

Rachel:

No, you don't. And you don't. You don't get a gold medal or like a statue for being like, wow, completed draft. It feels really. It feels really good to say something is done, but that done is not. Every word is in its right place. That done is okay. This first draft has helped me explore the story that I want to tell. That's really what done means in a first draft. Done doesn't mean every scene is finished or. Yeah, I've. I've answered all the questions. It means, okay, I. I did what I set out to do, which was tell an incomplete story. Yeah, Accomplished. The incomplete is accomplished.

Emily:

I had a lot of trouble with this early on because I wanted to share my drafts with people, and I felt like they had to make coherent sense. And so I was like, well, it's not done enough to, like, send to. To readers, to early readers until, like, all the threads make sense. But, like, guys, give your readers some faith. If you tell them that something's inconsistent, they're going to be, like, cool. They're still going to get it. They're still going to be able to give you advice. Like, you don't need to have all those holes filled in order for someone to understand what you're trying to do, so give them some trust.

Rachel:

Exactly. I think, like, a lot of the. When I know it's done. Fears come from, like, a fear of judgment and a fear of like, rejection. And it's not even. It's not even necessarily perfectionism. It just is like, I'm about to finish something that number one isn't really finished. That's another thing too, is that finishing a draft is like, in the creative world, it's step one of never gonna feel finished. Exactly. Like, I'm even relying, like, it even feels weird calling it finishing a draft because nothing is complete about this story. So, like the. If there's a lot of this mindset stuff behind it of, you know, if it's finished, it should be capital F finish. And like, that comes with a lot of attachments and associations. And like, what if I send something unfinished to my friends? And like, I know it's not as good, but you know, they're expecting it to be good because it's finished. And you're like, no, no, no, no, it ain't. It's not finished. It's not even close to being finished. Phase one is complete. That's it.

Emily:

You have moved to level two.

Rachel:

You have moved to level two. Exactly. So, like, that kind of mindset stuff, when you're really that worried about is it finished or not, that's. That's the questions I'd be asking. You're.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

What you're asking probably has a lot less to do with the actual, like, scenes in front of you than like all of the pressure and emotional hang ups you feel about calling something done. So if you can just let that go, you can call it done whenever you want to.

Emily:

Yeah, done.

Rachel:

Yeah. And that goes not just for first drafts. I mean, any draft that you're working through something until you're getting it close to that point of like, I think this is almost like done, done. But this is like. I mean, I do that for draft two, where I'm like, okay, I worked through all that I wanted to do done. But I know it's not done. It's just phase two is complete.

Emily:

So let's. Okay, so let's take that to, you know, your self publishing experience. How do you decide when you're ready to publish? And I know the answer is when I decide when I decide. But like, how do you get to that point of deciding and knowing, you know, I would.

Rachel:

Okay, so I think like, some of this answer comes from experience. So I want you to know if you're listening to this, the first time you make this choice, it's very scary. The second time you make this choice, you Kind of know what you're looking for. The third time you make this choice, it's really not that big of a deal. The fourth time you make this, like, I feel like the more you make the choice, you know what to expect. So just go into it feeling like the gut. The gut answer comes easier with experience. But when I was first getting ready to publish, like Blood in the Water, I still was trying to untangle a lot of perfectionism. And, like, I. I got to a point where I just had to accept, I am not trying to make this book perfect. So what is the holdup here? You know, that was like, a question I asked myself a lot of, like, you know, it's not going to be perfect. I accept that truth. I don't want it to be perfect. I accept that truth. If I tried to make it perfect, it would never be published. I accept that truth. So, like, is it ready now? You know, so I was working through kind of that mindset stuff, but practically from, like, a process standpoint, I had finished a couple drafts of my own. I had sent it to beta readers. I had addressed all their feedback. I had read it through multiple times. I had gotten to a point where I was like, I think I've hit all of the open question marks, like, all of the things that I knew I needed to change or that I wanted to change. And I knew that if I made those changes, like, the reader group that I had in mind would be pleased with the final product. When I had done all of that, I was like, yeah, this ready. There's nothing else. I mean, at that point, once you've done all that, the only thing really that is hanging you up is the question of, are you willing to tolerate a book that not everybody will love?

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

And are you willing to tolerate a book that's not perfect?

Emily:

Are you ready? That's a big question. Yeah. Versus the book.

Rachel:

Exactly. So I got to a point where I was like, yes, I am willing to accept and tolerate that this is not perfect. I still want to publish it. Cool. So then I publish it.

Emily:

Yeah. I love that. I think the big key thing to take away there is, like, the amount of feedback you were getting, Right? Yeah. And, like, the type of feedback you were getting. You were getting feedback from people in the reader group that you knew were going to like your book, and so you were getting feedback from them on if it was fulfilling the expectations that they had for the kind of book you were providing. Right. To get an idea of what your readers might think and changes you want to make that is so important. Whether you are self publishing, queering, whether you're going on sub, whatever, you have to get outside eyes because you might write a book that you really love and are really proud of and that's incredible. But it's still a book that's in your head.

Rachel:

Yes.

Emily:

That you're translating into words on paper. And so when you read those words on paper, there is a lot of context that your brain is bringing to those words that might not be on the paper. And you're not going to be able to see that unless somebody else reads it. Someone else has to read it and tell you what they see and what they're experiences of the book. So you can see if the vision that you have in your head is actually what's being translated onto the paper and if you want to make any revisions to like to address that. And so that is like if, if there's one requirement that I say, and this is not a requirement for a first draft but for any kind of publishing, you're putting it out there looking for, you know, an agent or an editor or to self publish it in the world. Get feedback first. I actually run into a lot of people, just had a conversation with someone last week who were thinking about querying without ever getting eyes. It's not. Give yourself that gift of readers and you don't have to pay for it. You do not have to pay for it. There are beta readers and alpha readers and critique partners and you can find other writers to share work with. It can take time to find the right people, but it's worth it. It's really, really worth it.

Rachel:

And we have an episode on beta reading which is episode 73. Yes, episode 73. So if you're like. Because we talked there about like, what questions did we ask people? I was very specific with the questions that I asked so that when I got the, when I got feedback returned to me, I knew exactly like the steps I was going to take to address that feedback. Like I had a path forward and when I had, you know, crossed off all of the items in my list, I was like, okay, done. You know, like I, I did, I did what the feedback said to do. And that's a good indicator you're getting even closer, you're on the right track, you're almost done. Or, or you're done.

Emily:

Yeah, that's how you get the confidence, I think by getting other people's reactions to your book, that's how you'll get the confidence that your ideal reader group is going to Appreciate it the way that you want them to, the way that you envision your book being consumed. So I think that's. Yeah, that's really important.

Rachel:

What was it like on the flip side for querying?

Emily:

Gosh, querying happened so long ago for me. So querying was, I think, a unique situation. So querying and going on submission are not very different. Like, you're basically finishing a book, you're sending it to somebody, you're hoping, Sending it to a lot of somebody's. You're hoping somebody picks you. Right? It's the same thing. It's just one querying, you're sending it to agents, and then submission, your agent is sending it to editors. So they're very, very similar. So I wouldn't say that they're. You know, my experiences would be drastically, or my advice would be drastically different for either. I do think it's a different. It is different because you are actively seeking out external validation in the sense that, like, you're asking somebody to pick you. So, for instance, for Molten, because I had already sold my duology at the same time, when I wrote up in Molten Lights, it wasn't for an editor's external validation. Like, I was already getting paid for it. And it was a very, very different emotional experience for me because I got to just write a book that I wanted to read without all that baggage of like, you know, all the things that people say that editors are looking for and what you have to keep in mind. And like. And like, yes, you, to a certain extent, you, you can't just write for, like, what somebody else is expecting. But when you're writing for agents and editors, you do kind of have to keep in mind, like, what people are expecting. They, they don't want to see very long books because paper is expensive. And so, you know, you want to keep it short, you want to keep it snappy. You don't want to have a lot of, like, I like books, but with backstory and exposition and emotional stuff at the beginning. But when somebody is looking to buy a book, they are generally looking for something that is short enough that they are going to get to beef it up with you and, like, give you direction. Right. An agent and an editor want to partner with you on your story and, like, help bring the vision further to life. And so they need to see room for that. So it needs to be tight, it needs to be fast, but it needs to be cohesive and makes sense. So it's just like a lot of, like, for me, when I was writing, you know, I was working on Crimson for querying and for submission. Like, that was a lot of. It felt like a lot of pressure back then because I had a lot of perfectionism issues with. For my current project that just went on submission. It wasn't as bad, but it still wasn't super fun. You know, I had to, like, do a bunch of drafts. I had to, like, really be thinking about, what are people gonna expect? What are they. How are we gonna pitch it to them? What are they gonna expect because of the pitch? Um, so there's a lot more expectation there. Um, but I really. Just. For that one. So for. For Crimson, I was pregnant while I queried, and then I was pregnant while I was on submission. So I had kind of had like, a tight timeline, which I think made it easier for me to be like, it's. I. It just has to go, like, it just has to go into. Like, I just have to. I just have to do it.

Rachel:

Um.

Emily:

Cause otherwise I'm not going to do it. So I think to a certain extent, like, timing, you know, I just made it the best I could within the time that I was given. And then I just. I had to make the conscious decision to just say, it's good enough. I'm gonna let it go. For this one that I just took on submission, I had more time. There wasn't any kind of rush that I had for it, so I really just edited to. Edited it until I got to a point where I was like, I love this book. I know it's not perfect. I love it. I don't wanna work on it anymore. Like, that my brain was just, like, I could get more feedback. I could have more readers. You know, I could, but, like, I just don't want to. Like, I' done. I'm sick of it. So for me, like, that's a good indicator that I'm like, I love it. I don't want to read it anymore. Like, yeah, just. It's gone. So that was kind of my ending point for that one, was a little bit of that.

Rachel:

I think people are like, well, that's something that I want people to sit with. Because we do put an exorbitant amount of time and effort into these drafts, into this, these books, into the work. And sometimes you just get to a point where you're like, hey, this all I want to do. Cool. Like, that's okay. Yeah, totally.

Emily:

Okay.

Rachel:

I have seen. I mean, I've seen people who have worked on 10 years of a draft because they absolutely love the story. And I've Seen people work on 10 years of a draft because they're afraid to give it up.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

And like, you know what. What really is giving you joy out of this process? And it's okay to be like, I've done as much as I can do. I'll try it. I'll try to query. And then if nothing happens, nothing happens. You've lost nothing. That's another thing to. I think people put so much weight onto. Like, well, what if I do all this work and then I query it and nothing happens? Nothing happens. You've not lost anything. Like, this is. The creative game is not meant to be built on these measurements that line up with economy and capitalism. Like, you've lost nothing. You did art, and that's really cool.

Emily:

And you still have the art and you can do stuff with it.

Rachel:

There's. It's not like it's dead. And, like, you know, you delete the file and you can never get it back again. I mean, maybe if that's cathartic for you, do that. But, you know, like, I just think there's a lot of emotional weight to these choices when, like, the stakes of them are, in reality, pretty low. And you're not losing anything by getting it to a place that makes you happy, trying to query it and then seeing what happens. And if it continues forward, amazing. And if it doesn't, do something else or go back to the drawing board or whatever is going to bring you joy. But if you get to a point where that story is like, you've pleased me and now you no longer please me, move on.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

All right.

Emily:

I think that's enough about that. I'm just kidding. Yeah.

Rachel:

Well, I mean, I think, like, the takeaways here are that if you're in early drafts, you decide, you get to decide. If you're in later drafts, you still get to decide. But the. The tools that give you confidence to make that choice is really outside feedback and, like, doing your best to incorporate that feedback. I do think considering market if you want to publish is very important.

Emily:

So, like, regardless of your path, for sure. Yeah.

Rachel:

And like, if you are going to market this book is. Or if you're going to publish this book, is there a market for it? How can you get in touch with that market? Can you accurately place it? Because those are all considerations that go into determining whether or not it's done. You know, I think because if the answer to, like, just to play that out, if the answer to, well, this book is done, but I have no idea where to market it, well, then it might not be as successful on, like, the second half of the publishing journey because you don't know where to put it. So are you okay with stepping forward, knowing that maybe there isn't a market for it? Which, if you're okay with it, great. And if you're like, no, actually I want it to fit more solidly within a market, then you have more work to do.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

Even with our clients. Like, you know, I had a client who did, like, a one on one client who had worked with me. We went through multiple different passes on revisions and then she took it to pitch and, like, even before she got to that point, we were still taking it to beta. Readers, like, even working with one editor is just one person. Even working with two people is just two people. So I think the feedback is really helpful.

Emily:

Yeah, it's essential, I would dare to say. Yeah. All right, so long story short, trust yourselves, trust your gut. Write a story that you're proud of, that you love, and it's done when you say it's done, it's done when.

Rachel:

You say it's done. Feedback. Don't be afraid to share it. Be afraid to, like, engage. Help. This is, at least in our spheres, like, community is community for a reason. So there are people around you that, like, want to help. I mean, this is what we're all trying to do. So find a community too, and come to ours.

Emily:

Come to Tunisia's wedding. Alrighty. Well, if you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.

Rachel:

Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.

Emily:

Link in the show notes. We'll see you there.

Rachel:

Bye.

Emily:

Bye.