Story Magic

108 - Dictation with Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer

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Today, Emily & Rachel are back from hiatus to talk about dictation with guest Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer!

What you’ll learn from this episode:

  • Incorporating dictation into your writing process
  • Managing mindset and perfectionism
  • Technology and tips

Join Sarah's DICTATION BOOKCAMP: https://www.fictioncourses.com/dictation

Check out Sarah's books: https://www.choctawspirit.com/shop/books


Ready to make readers so in love with your characters they can’t stop biting their nails in anticipation?  Grab The Magic of Character Arcs free email course: https://www.goldenmayediting.com/arcsmagic

Join Tenacious Writing! With the perfect combo of craft, mindset, and community resources, you will build a writing life that feels sustainable, fulfilling, and fun—without any prescriptions or rules. Learn more: https://www.tenaciouswriting.com/

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Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Hey, writers.

Rachel:

Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.

Emily:

I'm Emily.

Rachel:

And I'm Rachel.

Emily:

And today we are talking about dictation, which I'm so excited about, with our very special guest, Sarah Elizabeth Sawyer. And we're.

Rachel:

We are so.

Emily:

Thank you for being here, Sarah. We're so excited to talk about this.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Oh, thank you, Emily, Rachel. I really appreciate it. I'm excited to be here.

Emily:

We have folks in our community that are just so fascinated by dictation, and we talk about it all of the time, but we don't have any resources for our folks about it. And so you're going to be teaching a class for us later, which we're really excited about. But today we're going to just pick your brain a little bit about dictation. Can you tell us how you got into this? Like, how does somebody get into the world of. Of novel dictation?

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

That was such a mystery to me for so many years. And that's literally. I'm going to tell you my story. But seven years of trying and failing to get into the world of dictation. That's what it took, and that's why I teach it, because I don't want authors to take that long. I started. So I started as an author. Well, I wrote my first story when I was five. That's a different story. We won't go there. But in. In 2013, I had been hearing for a couple of years using Dragon Dictation, when they would buy the software, you know, get it on the CD rom, you load it onto your computer, and that's where it lived.

Emily:

Yeah.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

So every time I was in, you know, Office Depot or something, I would always go over to the softwares and I would see Dragon. I'm like, oh, it's like 7, 800. It may be been even more then. And I was like, who? That's. That's an investment. That's an investment. And I kept in the back of my mind, I was like, what if I can't actually speak my words? Like, what if I just, you know, freeze up or, you know, I can't get the software to work? And people were writing books about how to train your Dragon. Like, it just sounded really complicated. And I was like, I don't know if I'm. If I'm tech savvy enough. I don't know if I can do this. In 2013, I got my first smartphone. It was 2013 before I got my first smartphone. And one of the first things. One of the first apps I downloaded was Dragon Anywhere, and that was their. Their mobile app version. It's like 15amonth. And I just downloaded a trial version because I was like, I'm going to give it a try. I'm just going to give it a try and see if I can do this dictation, because authors are just singing its praises and all. So I did that, dictated a little bit of fiction posted on my Facebook. And I was like, this could be epic. And it was. It was an epic failure. I could not make the transition to actually speaking my fiction. And the tech, too, was just. It was like, this feels weird. And the app was cutting me off, and it actually turned out wasn't the app. It was my phone. There was just. There was just these glitches, and I was like, what is going on? And I was like, okay, this is. Let me just put it down. Like, I'm just gonna go back to my typing. And then I would hear somebody else on a podcast, like, your listeners right now, they're like, oh, here's somebody else talking about dictation. Like, how do you do it? And that was me. I was listening to authors, and they're like, oh, yeah, I dictate while I'm out walking the dog. I, you know, I dictate when I walk out, I dictate a chapter, and then walking back, I get another chapter, two chapters a day, and boom, I'm done. Another lady was like, oh, I dictate when I'm. I could be loading groceries in the car, and I'm just talking, talking my story. And then, you know, and I get my words in, and, oh, yeah, I write five, ten thousand words a day. And I was just like, oh, every time I would hear one of those stories, I would go back to dictation. Like, I'm going to give it another shot. I'm going to try dictation. And then I would fail. And one of the things is my brain would just freeze up. You know, it was like, how do I actually get words of fiction to come out of my mouth? Because it's one thing to, like, dictate a text message, which a lot of people today are familiar with, dictating an email or a text message. But to actually do fiction, like, that's a whole other thing. Fiction writing is a whole other thing from nonfiction. So dictating it. I was like, what. What's the key here? What. What's the secret? And in 2020, I finally, early in 2020, I sat myself Down. And I was like, I am going to train myself to dictate. And I started that. Started into it, did some training exercises, what I call training exercises and what I teach authors now to do. And one day, I was walking into the kitchen. I had some dishes to do. I had to get out to an appointment in, like, 20 minutes. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna do these dishes. Can't leave them in the sink. Head out. Soon as I cross the threshold into the kitchen, this scene, this fictional scene just downloaded in my brain. The whole thing, beginning, middle, end. It was perfect at the dialogue. Well, not perfect. As perfect as we ever think it is.

Emily:

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

I was like. And I was just like, oh, no. Like, I just had that sinking feeling in my gut. I was like, here is this scene because of my experience as an author, because I'd already published multiple books by this point. And because of that experience, I was like, this would take me at least an hour to type up. I've only got about 20 minutes. I've got dirty dishes in the sink. I was like, okay. I could run to my computer, just try to capture some notes, which any author that's ever been in that position knows that it's just. It's not going to be the same. Or you can lie to yourself and say, I'll remember it. I'll remember the whole thing when I get back. And, yeah, I'll get it. I'll get it captured when I get back, and you have nothing when you get home. My third option was I was like, you know what? I've been practicing this dictation thing. I've not actually done fiction, not written fiction from scratch, but I have been practicing it. I'm going to give it a shot. Why not? Why not? And what have I got to lose? So I plugged in my earbuds into my phone, which, for dictating fiction. Now, I don't recommend it because the. It had, you know, the mic hanging from the wire and it's rubbing on my clothes. So I tell authors, you get started with what you have. Like, don't let you back. Just get started with what you have. So I plugged that into my phone, started my record app on my phone, and dropped my phone in my pocket and started doing the dishes while I was speaking at that scene. And I just rattled it off, got the dishes done, headed out the door, you know, stopped my recording, headed out the door, came back, had my app transcribe those words. And y', all, I'd written almost 1500 words of fiction. Like a 20 minute period there while I was doing the dishes. And I was like, okay, I don't know what it will take for me to fully make the switch from typing my stories to dictating them. But whatever it is, I need to do it because this is really what I need to build a sustainable fiction writing career. So I want to dictate that entire novel. That was a backstory scene that I wrote and I went on to dictate that entire novel. And I've dictated all of my first drafts of fiction and since then. So for 14 books now.

Rachel:

Wow.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Wow.

Rachel:

How long does that. Okay, so I have so many. We're just gonna, we're very curious, right? We're gonna have so many questions. I have so many things. How long does that normally take you then to finish a first draft? If. Because I imagine if you're dictating it, you know, like, almost exactly how long that's taking.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Yeah. So my writing speed, I don't really do it in terms of days and weeks because I'm a pretty erratic writer. Like, I'm sporadic. So but to as far as like sitting down and doing my word count, I did time myself because when I typed I was always trying to get that speed. You know, I was always trying to increase my speed. So on average I could type about 1500 words of fiction per hour. So that was, that was average. I could sit down my. My morning hourly writing and I could get 1500 words in. I could hit up to 2000. I only did that like once. Hit up to 2000 words an hour with, with typing, with dictating, I average 3,000 words per hour and I can hit up to 4,000. So I've literally doubled my writing speed. And that is not talking as fast as I'm talking right now. Like, like doing fiction is the slowest that I will speak. And even with that, I doubled. Doubled my writing speed.

Rachel:

That's incredible. I was. When I first. I've been interested in dictation for quite a while, but I've always felt like it's just not going to work with my process or my writing style, which I'm sure you hear a lot. So I can't wait to talk more about that. But I had my do when I moved to Colorado three years ago. I had my daughter in daycare and there was like a parent event. And so I met this other woman there and we were talking about our jobs and she said, I'm an author. And I said, oh my gosh, I'm an author. And I was getting ready to publish my first book, and she was like, oh, no, I have, like, 10 titles out. And I was like, that's crazy. What? And she, like, writes. She was writing thriller, and she was making the transition into writing travel rom com. And so she was, like, starting a new author brand. And she's. She was telling me all about it, but, you know, I was explaining to her what we do and the work that we do. And I was feeling pretty proud that, like, I was gonna put my first book out and only have. And only have worked on it in, like, about a year. Like, that was the time, the timeline that I was at. And she was like, oh, no, I publish a book every six weeks.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Girl.

Rachel:

What?

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

How?

Rachel:

And she was like, I dictate them. And she was like, I dictate, like, 7 to 10,000 words a day, and I have my draft done in, like, a week, and then I edit it and then I put it up, and that's how I have, like, 20 books out.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

And I'm like.

Rachel:

I'm like, oh, my God, that's.

Emily:

The.

Rachel:

Name just telling me.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Like, she.

Rachel:

She was like, oh, I just dictate when I drive to and from school, and I dictate when I'm, like, cleaning around the house, and I dictate when I'm working out and when I'm folding the laundry. And she's just all day long dictating. And I'm like, how is this possible?

Emily:

Could you tell us how is this possible? I'm so curious, because I feel like my brain. I've tried it. I have the. I wanted to ask you about tech at some point, but there's. But that aside, we. I have the Otter AI app where you can, like, record, so I can still listen to my voice, but it also transcribes it. So I've used that sometimes because I. I do a lot of, like, hiking and running outside. Like, I'm outside a lot. And so sometimes, like, a scene will come to me, and so I'll just, like, spend. Speak into my phone. But it's more of, like, an outline than any kind of usable scene. And so I have to go back and, like, listen to it and then, like, make it into a scene. And I feel like it's that brain freeze that you're talking about. Like, my brain can't make lines of prose out loud, so it's a different thing. So tell me about this. Is there a secret? I'm sure there isn't, but I'm like.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Please tell me what it is.

Rachel:

I.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Think there's a couple of things. One, talking about hiking. So Kevin Anderson is who most people are familiar with about dictation. And he's written like in the Star wars worlds and all these, you know, big, big things, but he dictates. And he's the one that like dictate a chapter out while he's hiking and dictate one back. So. And one thing just, just let me, and I will come back and answer your question, Emily. But one thing with dictation that a lot of people don't realize in the story that you were sharing Rachel about, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, the lady, she just dictates all of this. And you know, we, we sit in awe. Like, wow, how is this done? Dictation has been around for a long time. Like before, you know, I think about, somebody was sharing, you know, John Milton wrote the epic poem Paradise Lost. He dictated that because he was blind. And there are like, I always forget her name, Barbara Cartland. And somebody will probably come on here and correct me. But she was a romance author in the, you know, early 20th century, late 19th century. She dictated like 700 novels. She dictated them to a private secretary. And that's what we had. And then we had the dictaphone where people would record and then they would hand it off to their secretary or transcribe this, then they would transcribe it. So dictation has been around a long time. The, the gentleman, and I forget his name as well. I've got to get better with these names. But the one who wrote the Perry Mason novels, so we have the TV series, but the one who wrote the actual novels, he dictated, he had like three or four secretaries and who would, who would take care and he would bounce around. So. So it's been around a while, but we still feel like because of the technology, it's so much more accessible just for us average authors that can't have a private secretary at all. So we can talk about tech and all, but dictation. Dictating fiction has been around a long time. But I think a couple of things Emily with, you know, I have a sign over my desk that says, I know I'm in my own little world, but they all know me here. I think that's one of the things with dictation is we're speaking these fictional worlds out loud and it feels really vulnerable to actually speak dialogue, to actually speak descriptions and maybe like a really heart wrenching scene and you're getting in the emotions. You're you're bleeding on the page, but you're not typing it, you're speaking it. And so that, I think, can feel even more vulnerable with. With making that. Actually making that switch. So a lot of authors do start with just dictating notes, and that's totally fine. Like, just start with capturing your notes, capturing your scene ideas. I've had authors that. They'll do that, and then just one day, for some reason, they just make the switch and they start speaking it in scenes instead of in notes. But then I have some specific exercises to really help authors make that switch. I have several. One is you can be typing your story, like actually typing a scene, not an outline, but you can be typing it and speaking it at the same time. And that gets you accustomed to speaking your words of fiction. This was actually came from one of my students. She recommended this. So this. That was a really good hack that I thought to really help you connect your mind and your. And your mouth together. So that's what you're wanting to do, is connect your imagination to your mouth instead of your fingertips so that those just flow out as naturally as it would out of your fingertips. And that's what I really believe. You're just. You're digging new neural pathways in your brain to make speaking your fiction as natural as typing. And so it took me time to get there and to make that switch, but now I. Dictating fiction is as natural to me as typing, even doing punctuation, so I can speak my punctuation, and it's just as natural. We have auto punctuate now, and a lot of people are dropping, you know, their. Their dictated words into to AI and having it do the cleanup and all. So that's something you can do or not do. I do my manual cleanup, which is. Which is where I'm at right now. But it's. It does take time to get to where you're making that transition. But there are exercises you can do. One of the things I think really hangs authors up is they try dictation. They're like, oh, no, not for me. My brain doesn't work that way. I'm not wired that way. Just like, you know, sometimes we think, like, I'm not wired to draw or to do math, but it is a skill. It's something that we can learn. And so dictation, you really treat it as a skill. Just like when you were learning to type or even handwrite, you know, handwrite your stories, type your stories. You need to learn how to dictate your Story. So do invest in that training and not let those brain blocks keep you from like, oh, I'm just not wired that way. So that's just your brain. Brain telling you that because it doesn't want to learn a new skill.

Rachel:

Yeah, classic me. I don't want to learn classic brain hard. I don't like being bad at things. Get out of here. Oh my gosh. So I'm like thinking of the way that I've thought about what you just said, like, kind of opened my eyes a little bit because when I was thinking about, oh, I should learn dictation, the immediate blocker, like I said, is like, well, my brain doesn't work like that. And so then the way that I write is like, I'll write like some things just dialogue and then I'll go back over it and add other things and then I'll go back over it and add other things and. And then by the time I'm done, like four or five passes, it's like a full out, so scene, but I'm doing like different parts of the scene at one time. And so I have previously thought, well, that would be impossible with dictation. But what you just said right now made me think, actually, it's probably like, not. Dictation is a tool that you learn how to use just like any other tool in your writing tool belt. You don't try to fit your brain and your process to work for the tool. You try to fit the tool to work for, like your brain and your process. Like the, the other way around. Like, how can you utilize dictation in like the way that my brain works? Not. My brain just won't work with dictation because I have these expectations of like, how it's supposed to work, you know.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

And I don't, you know, like your, your friend, you know, the author that you met, and she's like, I do it while folding the laundry and taking the kids to school and all those different things. I like to be still. That is my writing process and be creative. And I know there's research out there that walking and, and that, you know, get your creative juices going and you know, like movement great and dictation fantastic for your health. Boy, we could talk about health with dictation. But for me, being still is. Is if that's my writing process, like, I need to be still for my imagination to really work. And even lying down, like, that's. I kind of get in almost like that dreamlike state, you know, and stuff. And then I'm Just, I'm just speaking and. And getting into, you know, like, I'm drifting off to sleep and just going into dreamland. And. And I can. That's actually how the fastest that I can write with my fiction, but just being really comfortable, no pressure on my body. But that's the thing. That's exactly right, Rachel. You just want to find how dictation works with your writing process that you have already. I don't want to blow up anyone's writing routine or, you know, their. Their special, you know, way that they get into the creative flow and all of that, but do look at how dictation would work in that and do it the same way that you would do it if you were typing. So, Rachel, you know, like, you're laying down dialogue, so you're sitting at your computer. You can dictate at your computer. You don't have to be up moving around and, you know, doing what other people do with dictation. You can sit there, write by dictation, get your. Get your dialogue laid down, and then go back, click in wherever that cursor is, start your. Activate your dictation function, and start speaking again. So that gets a little bit more into, like, the technical processes and all, but, you know. Yeah, find. Use it in the way that works for you already in your. In your natural writing process, and you may develop some new things. You know, you may develop some new processes, and your brain may be like, hey, actually, I do like to. To walk around and. And speak. And speak my fiction. I've had authors make that switch, and they're like, this is actually really cool, or, I like riding on the public bus. And it's, you know, it's just good for my ADHD brain to, you know, watch, you know, movement and everything and be speaking my fiction while I'm riding on the bus. And so every. Some people will develop new things, but just start with your current process and find a way to put dictation into it. Yeah, I love that.

Rachel:

I mean, I feel like when I think of what is, quote, necessary to dictate, which is obvious, is incorrect, but this is like, the assumption is that you're basically reading a finished scene out loud to the computer. And, like, that's not at all what we're talking about.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Right, Right. And actually, though, I will say that's. And when we talk about my boot camp, that's one of the things. One of the exercises we do is reading a finish scene out loud to practice speaking it. Practice the tech and all. It's good Exercise to go. But, yeah, a lot of authors, they're familiar with doing it, you know, they handwrite their stories. A lot of my authors, they still, you know, they handwrite their stories. They rather do that than type. And so they'll take that and they'll read those out loud to their computer to get it transposed onto, you know, get it onto Microsoft Word or Scrivener or whatever it is that they use.

Emily:

That's a great idea.

Rachel:

How do you feel?

Emily:

Like, you go ahead.

Rachel:

I could keep coming. I was just saying every second I'm like, new question.

Emily:

It's so interesting how, like, I. I've just never thought about all the different ways that you can use it. Right. Like, I. We talk a lot about Rachel, and I have very different processes, and so I love the idea of. Right. Rachel can just dictate the dialogue part of her writing and then maybe go back and, you know, do the other steps a different way. For me, I tend to, like, do a bullet. I call it a bullet sketch, where I sort of sketch out everything that I can see about a scene. It's, like, lines of dialogue and things like, you know, descriptions, what I think should happen, how I want the tension to go. And I could dictate those. Like, those don't have to be, you know, written necessarily by hand in my journal. And, you know, we have folks in our community who hand write their novels, and I never thought of using it as an easy way to, like, get that up onto the screen. So. Yeah, I really love that distinction. Gosh. Yeah. So many. So many questions. I'll hand it back to me. Yeah, go. Go for it.

Rachel:

Like, this impacts, like, things like perfectionism. Like, do you see, like, your writers. Your writers struggle with that? Have you struggled with that? Does this ease perfectionism? Or have you had to, like, figure out how to work around, like, I have to say it just right.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Ooh, I have a whole class.

Emily:

Yes, I'm sure you do.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Perfectionism. Oh, the battle of perfectionism. And I have so many authors who are perfectionists, and I know y' all have probably come across this as well, just authors in general, even. Even if you're handwriting or if you're typing or if you're dictating, you want every line to go down perfectly, or you want to at least go back and rework and rework and rework that one sentence until it is perfect, and then go to the next one or that one chapter and then go to the next chap. And so dictation who so many benefits to this, it does get you comfortable with a messy first draft. It really can free your creativity. And I've seen authors be able to break through their perfectionism. I've had authors, they've been working on a novel for like 20 years, you know, and they just like can't let it go. They just, you know, going through that process. So with, with dictation, it really does force you to write forward. It doesn't force force you, but mentally it pushes you forward to writing. So I have three methods that I call, that I defined for dictating your fiction. One is the live transcribe. And that's where you're speaking your words and it's appearing on the page as you're speaking it. So that's the built in speech to text option that we all have on our phones and our computers. Again, we go into tech, but you can do that. And you're watching the screen, which is neat to watch. The words pile up and the words come. But you do have perfectionism. So you're like, oh, this is a mess. This is all, this is a disaster. So my second method is live transcribe, but you're not watching the screen, so you're just checking it, make sure you know nothing's crashed, your phone hasn't crashed your computer, you know, you're still. Words are capturing on the page. And then the third method is the record and transcribe later, which is what a lot of people think about with dictation. And that's where they're recording it. And then they drop it into something like Dragon or Otter AI and have it transcribed. That will push you away from perfectionism the fastest because you can't go back and edit. You are in your writing session, so you're out for that walk. Or you are sitting down and getting your one hour of writing in. You're not at your computer. You can't even see the words that you wrote. You don't know if they're perfect or not. They're just, they're there though, and you just have to push forward. I train myself to just leave myself lots of notes in there. So I would be like open bracket, research this close bracket or you know, move this to the beginning of the scene. So lots of great hacks like that that you can use. But you keep going forward. You are not scrolling back up, doing the editing as you're trying to, and you're switching your brain back and forth from create to edit mode. And it just really pushes you to keep going forward and just honestly Like I said, getting comfortable with that messy first draft, because dictating is. I was just talking about this with a friend this morning, and she's. She is really trying to make that. Or she is making that transition from typing to dictating, and she's like, you know, it's really good for me with this story because I. I'm stuck. I don't know where I'm going with this story. And it's been really, really hard to get words on the page. And with dictating, the words are just. She's able to just get them out, and as imperfect as they are, and she's like, I've just got to get this story written, and I'll go back and fix it. Fix it in editing. So, yeah, perfectionism. I'm. I'm a big advocate for the messy first draft, and I love what one author said is we're just shoveling sand into the box so we can build castles later.

Rachel:

Yeah, exactly. No, I think we're. We're always looking for, like, hacks, but not hacks. But, like, you. You. Perfectionism is something that is, like exposure therapy. Like, you have to get used to things being not messy or being messy in order to, like, accept that you don't need things to be perfect all the time. And, like, my. It's really interesting to hear you say that, because my instant reaction is like, well, this would really flare my performance perfectionism. But now that I hear you talk, I'm like, actually, that probably would be really helpful to just allow it to be a word vomit. And then you go back and you, like, tighten it up later. I mean, that's what it sounds like is really the process here is just getting the words on the page, and then you go back and you tweak them, which is the same process that I do now just with my fingers and not my mouth.

Emily:

Yeah, I do have a question about that. Okay, so we save lots of time by dictating, right? It sounds like once you get. Once you're, you know, proficient with it and. And have the skill, you could save a lot of time with it. But then don't you have to go back and, like, clean it up? I don't know anything about the tech. I. We mostly just talk about tech. Utter AI, which is like, you know, otter's a whole mess. It's got timestamps and, like, the sentences are all funky, and, like, the paragraphs aren't the right place, so. And maybe this is my inner, you know, visual perfectionist talking. But, like, how Do. How long does that take? Like, what is that process? Are there. Are there texts that help you get around that?

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Yes. So I'm not a fan of Otter. I'll just say that I'm not a fan of Otter. AI It's a good tool. It's just. There are better ones out there to me now, and we'll kind of move into tech. Here is Dragon dictation. I want to just make it really clear for everyone who's like, dragon's still $700 to invest in. I never use Dragon beyond that trial version on my phone in 2013. So I've never used Dragon. So let's see on. On unpacking this with the cleanup, that was my other big hurdle with moving into dictation. So I. I told the story. You know, I dictated that first scene. It was almost 1500 words. I was like, yes, I captured this. I'm doing this now. I'm doing dictation. I sat down to clean that up, and it took me about a half an hour to clean it up. And I was like. And I did some light editing too, and it came out to just under 1300 words. And I was like, wait a second. I dictated this in 20, 30 minutes, but it also took me like 30 minutes to clean it up. I'm back to 1500 words an hour. Doesn't sound like I'm really going faster. So is this worth it? Is it worth it? So a couple of things on that. One, I still captured that scene, which would have been completely gone. Two, I did it while getting something else done. So taking care of my health, too. I was not just sitting at my desk. And three, what I have found, as I have trained myself and gotten better with dictation and all the things that I, you know, teach in my. In my trainings, my cleanup time went from about 50, 50. So if it took me, you know, that. That half hour to dictate 1500 words, half hour to clean up to now, it's about 90, 10. So if I dictate for 50, 55 minutes, I can have that cleaned up. And even my cleanup process, you know, I'm very much just speed reading, cleaning up the errors. And so I can have that done in about five or 10 minutes. And that is. That's really important to remember that when we get into cleanup with dictation, we tend to want to, like, actually edit. You know, we want to go into edit mode. And the important thing is that we are just wanting it to look as good as if we typed it. So we're just cleaning up our stumbles and anything that our software didn't transcribe it correctly, we are just wanting to clean that up. And what I teach my authors, because I had one come in, and he successfully dictated an entire novel. But he was like, the cleanup was. It was such a disaster. He was like, I'm never dictating a book again. And so what I did and what I train my authors to do is do your cleanup immediately after your writing session. Like, just bake that into your writing time. So if you've got an hour to write, just leave yourself that time to do your cleanup. And I don't know how. How y' all are with. With AI or, you know, your. Your listeners and all, but I have a lot of people coming into my boot camp that they're like, hey, I created this prompt, and I just dropped my words into. Into chat, and it does my cleanup, and then I'm. I'm done. Like, they have a very specific prompt because you do have to be careful. You don't want it to change your words in any way, but just to do the cleanup. And also, some of those programs will add in, you know, your punctuation if you want that. I speak my punctuation. One, that makes it cleaner. Two, that's a part of my writing style. So especially as fiction authors, we use punctuation a bit differently than the nonfiction authors. So I like to speak my punctuation. But a lot of my authors now are just going to auto punctuate, and that's fine. And a lot of them are going to, you know, doing the cleanup, dropping it in and letting a software do their cleanup for them. So you can do it either way. But it does. It does get better with time. So I really encourage authors, like, don't. Don't be afraid of the mess, that dictation, because, you know, there's. There's messy first drafts, and then there's messy dictated first drafts. And so you do have to. You do have to face that. But there are lots of ways around it that still makes it very profitable in time to. To still do dictation. And with your health, that makes sense.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

I'm thinking, like, as I imagine doing it myself, I would want to punctuate, like, speak the words so that I could, in my head, know when things are like, that's. I, like, just visually, like, my eyes are, like, seeing a quotation mark to say, start a line of dialogue, like, does something to my brain where I can, like, tell that we're Gonna. We're gonna be talking, right? And so, like, I. I'm imagining that for you. You've just gotten so used to punctuating and speaking it that it doesn't take you out of, like, this vision. Whereas I'm like, I'm gonna be saying a line of dialogue and then being like, comma, close quotation marks. He said, period. And it's just gonna be like, question mark. What even is punctuation? I don't know what. And you were like, open bracket. Research this close bracket. And I'm like, well, I write that all the time, but my brain would never be like, oh, yeah, that's called a bracket, you know. But I'm guessing you get better at that.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

You do. You do get better. And some. It's easier to say open parentheses, you know, which. Actually, mine does that anyway. I'll say open bracket and open parentheses. And I'm like, whatever. I'm not gonna fight you. But I'm trained to say open brackets. So I will say that forever. So that's. That's. It is the same as. We don't think about hitting the shift and hitting the question mark on our keyboard. We don't think about hitting the return key. We don't think about hitting the period. It does just flow out as naturally as that. So it's just. I'll speak. Yeah. A line of dialogue, and I'll say, period, close quote, new line. And then start going into the next action beat or whatever it is that I'm at the scene. So it does become natural. And there. There are ways to practice your punctuation before you put your pressure. Put that pressure on yourself to do it while you're dictating fiction. So that's the other thing that freezes authors up, is they're trying to do all of it at once. They're trying to dictate for the first time. They're trying to dictate fiction for the first time, and they're trying to speak their punctuation. And it's just like, crisscrossing through your brain. It's like, no, this is taking up too much energy. We have to, you know, preserve that energy. And your brain just wants to shut that down. So really taking baby steps and practicing punctuation before you put the pressure on of, okay, I'm going to do it inside this scene.

Rachel:

That makes sense. Do you ever have authors, like, come up with their own shorthand speech? Kind of like where, you know, I'm thinking now that, well, maybe I wouldn't want to Say open quote, close quote. But maybe I'll say like ld for like, line of dialogue, and then I'll speak it and then I'll go to like a new paragraph and I'll say something else where to me, when I'm cleaning it up, like, I can. I know what that meant to me. Do you ever have authors do that?

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Yeah, yeah, I've heard authors do all kinds of hacks with that. I have one that she said. She says. I say Pikachu whenever I like, like trying to, like, you know, come up with a different. Or I'm like, oh, I know I need to go back and fix that sentence. So I'll just say that. And then she could do a find and. And be able to pull that up. I know of another author. He does blank, blank, blank. I think that's what he is. Like, blank, blank, blank. And that's for that. And then, yeah, and then some for, like I said, if you don't want to say open quote or you're programs having issues with, you know, trying to, you know, do that automatically in there, then yeah, just say ld, you know, line of dialogue, you know, whatever feels good for you in your writing flow and in your writing process. So, yeah, I have authors come up with their own. Their own hacks to. To doing in the dictation. I'm like, yeah, go for it. We are not. We are as individual with dictating as we are as authors ourselves. So your dictation style is going to be individual. And it's just, you know, you can develop that and then you can tweak it. So, you know, you may start with doing that and then you're like, yeah, I'm going to go with open quote. Or I'm going to. I'm going to try this differently and I'm going to work on just a throwaway story or a, you know, a flash fiction from my newsletter. I'm going to experiment with some other commands and other ways of doing it and just see how I like it.

Rachel:

Yeah. So technology wise, if we're not using, like, what do you use then for your technology?

Emily:

Not Otter. What else?

Rachel:

Not Otter. Bad.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Not Otter.

Emily:

It's not what OTTER is made for.

Rachel:

No, it's not fair. I don't feel like it's real.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

It's for transcribing meetings with multiple speakers and timestamps, and that's what drives me crazy. The other thing is OTTER will not let you turn off auto punctuate. So if you do want to speak your punctuation that that was my biggest hang up with Otter. It would just spell out the word period question mark. So it knows like. And I'm like, okay, you're worthless for me now. Other authors, I have other authors, they love Otter, you know, and they just. And they'll, they'll put it in there and have it transcribe. I started out with my first nine books that I dictated. I used an app that I don't recommend anymore because they've kind of. I don't know what happened exactly. Whenever I got my new phone and I used it on there and I was dictating and then I was having it transcribed, it was missing paragraphs. Like, it would miss sentences and paragraphs. And I think it was just going so fast on the new phone, like, like it was just literally skipping over things. So I don't recommend that app anymore. But I loved it. I did nine books on it. When you're doing the record and transcribe method like that, it's, it's a little, it's. I won't say it's advanced, but it is several more steps. So I don't really recommend authors start out with that. But it is the fastest way to write. And so you have to record it and then if the app has the capability of transcribing it, it will transcribe it and then you have to copy it and get it over to your computer somehow. So email it to yourself. Or if you have a, you know, a notes app that's synced with your computer and your phone, you can drop it in there and then go to your computer and copy it over to then your. Your word processing document. So it's, it's several steps there, but it can be really worth it, especially if you're struggling with perfectionism and seeing your words on the page. Like, you're like, I need to get away from that and I need to just speak my words and not be able to look at them until I get done. So that, that's the record and transcribe method. So that's what I did. And how I currently do it is I do have iPhone and I have, I do all of my work in Scrivener. Love Scrivener and I. And they only have the scrivener for iOS. Unfortunately it's not for Android, but I have that on my phone.

Rachel:

Even iOS Scrivener is like, I don't like it.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

I don't like that I can't do my split screen. It's just like, I can't do my split screen because I mean the screen's small and that's like my biggest thing with Scrivener. I love my vertical screen. So I, but I will just go in there, I will go to the scene that I'm working on, I will tap it up, tap up my on on screen keyboard, tap my dictation option and just start speaking my words. And it is right there. And then whenever I finish, I just be sure and sync it with Dropbox. Yes, that's the annoying part of corrupted. Yeah, corrupted files between devices. So I sync it with my Dropbox and then when I get to my computer, I do my cleanup. Because doing cleanup on your phone is just. Sometimes I'll do it to stall going to my desk, you know, if I'm like just wanting to stay in my comfy chair in the warm living room or whatever in the winter time. But, but, but otherwise I do my cleanup then on my computer and it's just like there instantly. So Scrivener does not have. I always like to clarify this because people are like, oh, Scrivener has a built in dictate function. Very few programs have that. It is just using your already built in speech to text or dictate function on your phone or on your computer. So whether that's Microsoft Word. Now there, there are some exceptions like Google Docs has its own built in speech to text option. But for most devices it's just using whatever your default is. So that's how I currently do it. I just dictate directly into, into my Scrivener project.

Emily:

And it doesn't ever get confused. Like one of the things I like about Otter is it records my voice. So like if there's a paragraph that I'm like, this is gibberish nonsense, I can just go listen to myself speak it. Do you. I mean you're probably so pro at this now that that doesn't happen to you. But I just, especially with like fantasy words and stuff like my phone just can't hang.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

It's like I can't, I can't do this. I can't even. So there's, there's a couple of things on that. I, I am I semi watch my screen. No, I don't watch everything, but occasionally I'll see something and then it's doing that cleanup immediately after, you know, because then I can usually remember. But even when I did the record and transcribe method, I, I had that double assurance like you said. You know, it's like, okay, I've got It recorded. So if I can't, you know, if the, if the transcription is gibberish, I can at least go back to that.

Emily:

And.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

And I found that I don't. I can't remember one time that I went back and listened to a recording. That can definitely happen. What I would say is, if you are wanting to do the live transcribe, like, just speaking directly into Scrivener is just record on a different device. So get a cheap digital recorder offline, or if you have an iPad or, you know, a tablet, you can record that, but you're actually, you know, you're dictating, going into your phone or whatever your device is, but then have some kind of backup recording if you want to just have that double assurance. And then, you know, just after you go a few years with dictation, if you're like, ah, really not, not, not needing that, then you can let it go. Or if you're like, oh, yeah, that's. That has saved my bacon a few times. So you can, you can have a recording as a backup. So I know a lot of authors like that, and I did that whenever I was starting. But. But I found that it transcribed well enough that if I did my. My cleanup immediately after that, if it did something, I'm like, what in the world? So talking about fantasy names, I write historical fiction, so I have a lot of the same issues because some of my characters, and I'm also Choctaw. I'm a tribal member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. So all of my characters are First American. So that are the main characters. So I had this one character, his name was Tecumseh. And it was actually in the first book that I dictated. It was book four of my Choctaw Tribune series. And my transcription, it had no idea what to do with that. It was like. It was like two come see. Like three words. And then sometimes it was so butchered, I would just have to look at it for several minutes. And then I finally realized, oh, that's the character's name.

Emily:

Yeah.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

What? This is not going to work. This is. This is again something. And I was like, you know, if it would just do the same thing each time, I could just do find and replace. And then it was just like two come sees, like that would fix it. And I was like, oh, that's what I need to do. So when I dictated, I just changed his name to Kirk. And so not. Not Ben. We're, you know, Ben and Ben. But it just. It was very easy to say Dictation the transcription got it down every time. And then when I did my cleanup, I could just find and replace Kirk for Tecumseh and that resolved that. And so that's something, you know, with fantasy names and sometimes there's a lot of them. So either having a, you know, having, having a cheat sheet where you're exchanging those names or they're, like I said, the programs are getting really good. And for some authors with their, you know, if they are doing AI cleanup, they can even train it to find those character names and get them replaced. So I know some authors who are doing that.

Rachel:

I was going to ask if you've felt as though the more you use a particular software, which you said is like the inherent dictation app, that it learns your speech patterns and it like gets better at transcribing.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Yeah, it can. I have found even though the programs are using the same built in speech to text, like Scrivener and Word and messages and notes, it can behave differently. It can do better or not, depending on the program. For iPhone, you know, it's based on the Siri technology. So it is learning your voice, it's learning your accent. I've had an author that English was her third language. I have an author who dictates in Finnish. So we have, you know, we have different needs in there. And with iPhone, I know, and really pretty much all the technologies, it is learning your voice and it is learning, you know, the way that you speak some things. And sometimes, you know, if you have an accent like me, which I'm you. You two are so kind. Neither of you mentioned my accent. So we're like, oh, we've got this southern accent. It's probably because, you know, regionally we're not, we're not too bad, right? But, but I've had, you know, with British and all, and they're like, oh, we've got this rollicking accent.

Emily:

Thank you.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Yes, I am from Texas. So with, with that I had this word, it was mini M A N Y and it kept putting it as mini M I N I. And I was like, I was like, no, mini Minnie. And it was like, okay, yes, I know it sou like that, but that's not what I'm saying. So finally I started over enunciating and I was like, Manny, man, Manny. And so it started picking up and then I was able to actually pull back from that. And now when I say Minnie it, Manny Minnie, it picks it up so, so that you can, you can work with it. It's like you know, we think about train your dragon. You know, that was. The thing is like you could train it to your voice and all and it's still, if, if people have dragons still a great software, I hear great things about it. But you can just. With your built in, there are things that you can do that I think you can't like specifically train it, but I think it does pick up a lot of those things.

Rachel:

Yeah, well, the, the technology as, as you've already said has come so far. Like I, I actually worked for Apple for quite a while in the early years and the early years, not the early years of Apple, but like a while ago in my early years. Yes, I was there in the garage when Steve Jobs. No, I, the reason I remember is because I was working at the Apple Store specifically when they turned the function button into dictation. So when it became part of the native os, I was at the store and it was like a really big deal, history making. I know. And I mean every day at the Apple Store was history making.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

That's true. It's not wrong.

Rachel:

I could go on and on about the Apple Store and the nightmares and trauma it gave me, but like I remember when that came out and I remember, you know, Apple does so such a great job at like it's marketing language and kind of explaining its new technologies and showing how it would benefit your life. And I do specifically remember them saying like it will learn your patterns.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

The more that interesting do it.

Rachel:

And at the time that in the Apple Store troubleshooting the computers, that did.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Not happen.

Rachel:

People would be like, my dictation doesn't work. And I'd be like, talk better. Like I don't know what to tell you. So I am happy to hear that. It sounds as though those technologies have continued to improve.

Emily:

That's hilarious.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

I, I am, I am going to be able to share that story now. Oh yeah, I heard it firsthand. Did not work. But yes it does.

Rachel:

It did not work and it was so true. You had to say it just right. And like people would also. Now this is just a tangent, but like people would press their function button and not recognize what they were doing. So then they would freak out and they would be like, my computer's listening to me. And I'm like, you just turned on dictation and just turn it off. And they'd be like, I don't know what's happening. Apple's listening to me.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

And I'm like, please go home.

Rachel:

Leave me alone. So we were fraught with confused people when that came out. But I feel like now it's integrated into everything. And like, Apple choosing to make that part of the native OS for free, like, killed Dragon, like, and they bought Dragon. They bought Dragon and, like, integrated part of it, I think, into their dictation for. I could be totally wrong, but, like, I remember, did Microsoft buy it?

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

You cannot use Dragon on. On Apple products now unless you have old, you know, an old thing that you can hack onto there. But, yeah, that's. That's the thing. Yeah. For Mac users.

Rachel:

Yeah. And like, that. That ended up being the competition. I mean, there's always. You recognize, like, at the. At the time, the age that this was, you know, like, one upping constantly. Who's gonna be better at this? Like, who's gonna be better at this technology? Yeah. So now that.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

That does.

Rachel:

That does remind me. And then Apple's like, well, we have to be better. We need to have dictation everywhere for free. We're the best.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

I mean, you had to pay hundreds of dollars for this software, and now it's just, boom, it's right there on your computer.

Emily:

What a gift.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

It is not perfect. Like, it is still going to get your words wrong. You're still going to need to do your cleanup. You're still going to have those struggles. But, yeah, I have so many authors, Like, I can so relate that. April, Rachel. I have so many older authors who. The technology is what's holding them back from dictation, because they are like, I pushed a button and it's listening to me, you know, but it's like, they want to learn, though. And for many, they're like, I have to do it because I. I have, you know, rheumatoid arthritis. I have. I've had surgery. I have broken bones. I have. I cannot sit at my computer. I'm going through cancer treatments. Like, I have so many authors who are like, I can't keep writing if I don't do dictation. So I have to learn this technology. And I'm. I'm so grateful that I can kind of be that tech support for them and. And guide them through. Here's how you can do it just on Microsoft Word, you can do it on, you know, whatever program that you like to write on. You can do it. It's not, you know, it is so, so doable. So I really take them through the very first baby steps of. Here is how to turn on your dictation function on your Android phone, your iPhone, your MacBook, your PC, whatever it is. And then I have authors who pass me up. Like, one of my senior authors, she is dictating on her smartwatch. So there's that. Oh, my goodness.

Emily:

Wow. Well, okay, so this is. We could pick your brain forever. I want to be respectful of your time. So can you tell us you are hosting a dictation boot camp camp next week? I believe so. Can you tell us. Tell our listeners a little bit about. Tell me a little bit about it. Because now, like, do I need this?

Rachel:

This is small.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Gotta come. You've gotta come. So it kicks off October 14th. It is all held over. Zoom. That's how I teach the classes. You get the replays for 30 days. Basically. We have. So we have the live training, but I have a lot of authors all around the world, so I have authors in Australia, New Zealand. They mostly do it by the replays or, you know, you're just at work, whatever. But we do have a good bit that show up live, which is awesome. I love to get in there. And we do just take the baby steps in dictating your fiction. So if all of this has seemed overwhelming or you're like, I'm a little bit lost in this conversation in terms of the technology or just the process, the writing process, like, what are those step by step, how do I dictate and how do I train my brain to dictate? We take all those just baby steps to get you started with dictating your fiction. And the goal is at the end of the bootcamp, you're able to just distinguish, do a little baby scene, just be able to dictate that first scene of fiction. But we take it slow. We do exercises. I have assignments for you. We have. So it's a total of four days, so three days of training. We have a pre party and have the weekend, so you can catch up if you feel like you're falling behind. Like, I just make it as doable as possible for authors because this is a new skill and it can be overwhelming to get your tech going and to get, you know, the mindset going with doing dictation. So this is a chance for you to come in with, you know, potentially, you know, we may have a couple hundred authors in the bootcamp, so you're surrounded by everyone else who is taking their first steps with dictation. And we'll have some advanced authors in there too, who are, like, wanting to reach back and give. Give that input on here's what I do on Android or here's how I get it going with Google Docs. So all Authors using all different kinds of tools and devices. So there's someone in there who can help you with your specific question. We have a private Facebook group community that will open up right when the bootcamp starts so that you can get in there and post your assignments and just talk about, you know, any struggles or challenges and victories that you're having so that we can cheer. Cheer each other on. And so I do that. Three training days. We really focus on the tech, getting that up and going for you and then just practicing with dictation before you enter into that first scene of fiction. So if you don't feel ready to start dictating, the dictation bootcamp is for you because it will just take you through those first steps and it's just $37 for the whole bootcamp, so. And you'll have 30 day access to the. To the replays after the bootcamp ends.

Rachel:

That's awesome. We are going to have the links for that in our show notes. So go check that out because I am definitely going to go check that out.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

I'm so excited. Yeah. So that's over@fictioncourses.com dictation bootcamp and for anyone who may be listening to this later and the. The bootcamp has ended, do go ahead and go to fictioncourses.com forward/dictation. And I have a free dictation guide there you can download and that will also put you on my author newsletter list so that you'll be notified when we do the bootcamp or other trainings. When I do other trainings again for. For dictation. So you can, you can get all that over there. Awesome.

Rachel:

Amazing. What if people are interested in buying your books? How do we find those?

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

Oh, you can find them on any of the major retail outlets. I also have a shared artist website with my. My mother, Linda K. Who's a Choctaw artist. And that's@choctawspirit.com and you can get my books on there or any of the major retail outlets and their ebooks or paperbacks.

Rachel:

Awesome. I'll put that in the show notes also. Yay. Thank you so much. This was like so fun and literally I just constant. I just could have kept going. So when you join the boot camp, be prepared because I'm going to be there being like.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

You will be surrounded by so much support. Some of the best authors in the author community come to my boot camp. Not to, not to brag, it is just some really great people that come in there and very supportive of each other. I love it.

Emily:

Amazing. Oh, thank you so much, Sarah, for being here. This has been amazing. Such a treat. Yeah, you'll probably see us.

Rachel:

I can't wait.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer:

I'm so excited. I appreciate y' all having me on. And we don't have a word for goodbye in Choctaw. We say chapisa la chaqui. I'll see you again soon.

Rachel:

If you want to build a successful, fulfilling, and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.

Emily:

Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.

Rachel:

Link in the show notes. We'll see you there.

Emily:

Bye.