Story Magic

102 - Tackling serious themes with Michael Dante DiMartino

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Today, Emily & Rachel talk about tackling serious themes with guest Michael Dante DiMartino.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

  • How to navigate serious topics for younger audiences
  • Embracing seriousness but with the right tone
  • The craft of writing cross-medium
  • Finding your story's message during revisions

Check out Michael's website: https://www.michaeldantedimartino.com/

Read BOTH HERE & GONE: https://www.michaeldantedimartino.com/here-and-now


Ready to make readers so in love with your characters they can’t stop biting their nails in anticipation?  Grab The Magic of Character Arcs free email course: https://www.goldenmayediting.com/arcsmagic

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Emily:

Hey writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.

Rachel:

I'm Rachel.

Emily:

And I'm Emily.

Rachel:

And today we are talking about how to tackle serious themes while writing for younger audiences with our very special guests, Michael, Dante DiMartino. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Thanks so much for having me on. Nice to meet you.

Emily:

We're so excited. Woo hoo.

Rachel:

We are. And as I told Michael before we started, we're huge fans because Michael is the co creator of the Lost Airbender and has just a prolific creative experience in so many different TV shows and graphic novels. And the book we're going to talk about today. So we talk about Avatar all the time.

Emily:

And I actually watched it. I was thinking I had never seen it when Rachel and I met. And then we wrote that Zuko blog about how it's a blog about his character arc. Redemption. Redemption arcs. So we have a blog about Prince Zuko's redemption arc on our website. Anyway, so Covid. I vividly remember when Covid first hit my husband and I. My husband does not like graphic anything and I was like, I'm going to watch this show, so deal with it. And I just started watching it and we consumed all of Avatar and Legend of Korra and it was amazing.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

I think you. Yeah, you weren't the only one. Because we definitely had a resurgence of interest when it was put on Netflix during that time and everybody had some time on their hands and wanted to go on an adventure and wanted to escape.

Emily:

Yeah, for sure.

Rachel:

I think I've watched the show like at least once a year since.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Wow.

Rachel:

I know. Since like probably it's like a comfort now.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

Yeah. But they, I think they're taking it off Netflix and I'm like really bummed out about it. I think it's going to Paramount plus and so far I have.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Well, that's the thing. The funny, no offense to Paramount plus because I work for Paramount, but it's always been on Paramount plus. But people don't. It's not, it's no Netflix. So you know, people don't necessarily know it's on there. But yes, maybe there's a reason for people to sign up for Paramount plus to watch some Avatar.

Rachel:

That's my reason for sure. I have to. Yearly watchings.

Emily:

I love it.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yes.

Emily:

Okay, so as much as we love Avatar, you are partially here because you wrote a novel recently and released a novel recently. So can you tell us a little bit about maybe for folks who don't know who you are because we are nerding out a little bit. Can you tell us a little bit about like who you are, how you're related to the Avatar world, what you did for that show and how you ended up in novel writing and a little bit about your current novel?

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, totally. My name's Mike and yes, I'm most well known for being the co creator of the Last Airbender and Legend of Korra, which was the sequel series. And yeah, I grew up in Vermont back east. Always was interested in, in art, like from a very young age. I was always drawing and you know, in high school knew I wanted to go to art school and I wasn't sure about animation yet, but I really liked animation. Thought maybe I would do painting or illustration. And then yeah, I went to one art school my freshman year in Baltimore, Maryland and then transferred to Rhode Island School of Design for the rest of my college career because they had a, a film and animation program there and I, that was like kind of a sign. I was like, oh, I always wanted to do that and here's a school where I can, I can learn how to do that. So. And that's, you know, ultimately where I met a lot of my good friends, including Brian Konitsko, who's the, the other creator of the show. So we've known each other, you know, for almost well over 20 years now because this year is actually the 20th anniversary of when Avatar premiered. That's so crazy. Really. We were working on it like, you know, a few years before that. So we've been working on this stuff for close to 25 years now, which is crazy. So yeah, I mean, my early career was in animation. I worked on shows like King of Hill and Family Guy, doing storyboards and directing and that sort of thing. But I had always been interested in writing. I did a lot of like writing on the side, short stories, that sort of thing. And yeah, wanted to create my own show. I did a short film on my own that I wrote, animated, produced like during my early career when I was working on those shows. This was pre Avatar days. So like 2000, 2000 to 2002 ish. And yeah, then Brian and I had worked together on these shows and wanted to create our own show and take that next step. So we combined our forces and.

Rachel:

In.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

The grand scheme of things, it was a relatively short amount of time of coming up with the idea for Avatar, pitching it and developing it, and ultimately getting at least the initial green light to start making some episodes. And we are still Working on this world today. There's going to be a featured film coming out next year. We're working on some other stuff I can't talk about, but there's a lot of stuff in the pipeline so I'm very much still steeped in that world. And then yeah, the novel writing thing was something I was always kind of working on on the side. A few years back I published a two books in a like middle grade fantasy series. And that was between. Or that was after Korra. We finished Korra and like needed a. Needed a break and a creative recharge and I really wanted to do, you know, finally get into publishing and you know, try to write a full novel. And so I wrote a couple of those and then, then there was some other Avatar stuff going on and then yeah, this was also during the COVID kind of pre. Covid time. And then into Covid, like I just like I find I'm more creatively fulfilled even though I have a very creative job, you know, like having my own side project or side writing projects that aren't connected to a studio or getting notes from a studio, that sort of thing. So yeah, this project, which ultimately became the book both Here and Gone, it was kind of an experiment because it was like I said, I needed just like a creative something spark, jumpstart. So I had never done NaNoWriMo before. So this was like 2019. And I was like, oh, that's a good way to sort of just write every day. And even if nothing comes of it, you know, I'll have gotten back into the groove a bit. And so I had like a very rough idea of this story about a kid who was going through like all these losses. Pac man, the video game was involved bigfire. A girl with amnesia, like, so I had all these kind of like pieces that I was like interested in and sort of just went, you know, did what you do during NaNoWriMo. I was like, all right, here's scene one. Here's some stuff that's going to happen. And some days I was like, oh, this is cool. Some days I'm like, I don't know what I'm writing. I don't know what this is. Because it was very different than what we do on the TV shows, which is typically you're not alone. You're sitting in a room with a bunch of other writers talking about these ideas. You're putting cards on whiteboards or whatever. You know, very outline heavy process because you have to write a premise, turn it into the network to get notes, you Gotta write then a more fleshed out outline, turn that in, get notes until you find. Then you finally get to write the script. So, you know, it's a very. For good reason. You know, there's the. It's a very. It's still a chaotic process, but. But it's a little more organized in that, like, each step, you know, you're, you're. There's a lot of planning involved, I guess. And this one, I was trying to do a little more of the pantsing thing and just see where it took me. And then sort of like once I had that rough, very super rough draft at the end of November, sitting down and seeing like, what is this really about? How do I structure it? What am I trying to say with this book? And then, you know, then went into revising and stuff. And a lot of that happened during the lockdown days of 2020.

Rachel:

Yeah. So I. Emily is typically a plotter and I am typically a pantser. And so we end up having like these really interesting conversations about how process can differ in the writing experience. But you ultimately end up with like a finished book and everybody still needs to write a first draft and everybody still needs to do revising. And it's like, all so important in the storytelling process. But did it feel like it was like scratching different itches in your brain to go from something so heavily planned to like, I'm gonna try pantsing? I mean, did you like it or were you like, no, this is the worst.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Um, it was a day to day thing. Cause, yeah, on the one hand, there were days where like, something surprising would happen that I had not planned consciously. Like, the character of Rennie, who's like, kind of one of the main characters in like, a mentor figure to the main character, Jack, like, he was not someone in those initial scraps of ideas I had, like, I didn't have a character that was like, philosophical guy who lives in the woods, who mentors young kid, but I was writing a scene that is. It kind of ended up in the book where Jack's like, outside this mall hanging out, and then this dude pulls up in a pickup truck. Like, that was one of those, like, you know, sort of unplanned, semi magical moments where it's just like, oh, who's this dude? Why'd he drive into this story? And then, you know, exploring him and his role in the book. So. But yeah, but then there were days where I was completely lost and had no idea what I was planning to do with this story. And what do I write today? And so it's a. It's a mixed bag. I do think it is interesting since I have written for tv, I've written comics, I've written some novels. There is something I think for novel writing that I do like about being a little more freeform about it because I think with my middle grade novels, I think I did take more of the approach that I do on tv, which is more plotting and planning out every chapter ahead of time. And, and I think, I mean, it was also my first full novel I had written, so it feels kind of stiff at times and not as novelistic as I had kind of hoped, I guess. So that's why I think a combo is good, especially for writing novels.

Rachel:

Yeah, we say a lot in our sphere that revisions are where the magic happens. It's like a. It's. I don't know if we coined that, I doubt it. But like we say that a lot. Revisions are where the magic happens. Did you feel like that was so true for both here and gone as you were figuring out the message and you know, figuring out how is Rennie really going to play and all this story and weaving him back in really tightly? I mean, what was your revisions process like?

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, it was really, it was going through. I mean, first I worked with a, like a story consultant guy I'd worked with before on a. Actually I had also written a audible drama, like an audio drama for Audible a little bit before this, this novel. And I had worked with him to help develop the story and stuff. So he does more like screenplay stuff. But I was like, I really liked working with him. So I was like, can you take a look at this story I have and see what, what structure is there? And so that really helped whatever version of that is for you, getting somebody else's eye on it to just help you sort of just identify the themes even. Whose point of view is this coming from? So yeah, the book is all told through Jack's POV. He's a 14 year old boy. But when I initially wrote it, I had all these sections that were from his father's point of view, who in the story he goes missing on the Appalachian Trail. And it was like his journals from the trail and it was kind of interwoven through the whole story. Yeah, and so that, I mean that was one of the big changes in the revision process that came out is like I thought that that had to be in the story as this. It's kind of a. There's a bit of a mystery to the story too of like what happened To Jack on this fateful day when his friend fell through the ice and she was in a coma and has lost her memory about what happened. And so, yeah, that revision. I forget exactly where it happened, but somewhere in the middle, I was like, I wonder if this book would work better if I just took this out. So you're just in his head, because it is very much a. He's kind of an unreliable narrator in a way. So anytime you stepped away from him, you were getting this other point of view that I think ultimately wasn't helping the main story. So, yeah, that was one big thing that occurred during the reunion process.

Rachel:

Yeah. I think as an adult reading both. Herringon is young adult, so I think as an adult reading that you can definitely pick up that he is an unreliable narrator. But I was trying to imagine as I was reading it, being a kid and thinking, like, wow, this is. He goes through a lot. You know, like, just from the get go, every single thing in Jack's life is just going wrong. And, like, there's a lot of really heavy things that he hits on. And I think, like, I didn't experience a lot of that in my childhood. And I think reading it, you know, this is what we're talking about today, is like, seeing these really heavy things on the page and then also trying to make sense of them in your head at that age. And I imagine it just has to be, like, such a difficult balance because obviously you're writing in as an adult. You've lived through loss. We've now, as adults, lived through that. But putting it in the context of, like, Jack's life is so hard, and, like, every single thing that he's going through, there's something new that makes him angry or jaded or nervous or, you know, we. We still feel the. The tension of that mystery. And, like, you can feel that he's gotta come to, like, a mo. Like a reckoning of that, you know? So what was that like coming through? I mean, it feels like that's common amongst a lot of your work and in Avatar as well, is these themes that, like, we don't want to shy away from them as kids, but how do we present them in a way that we can feel it, but not like, oh, yeah, war and death and genocide are real, but cancer is also real, and so is loss and grief, and you've got to just live that.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah. I mean, with the show and then with this novel, part of it, honestly, is just like, we all have our natural sensibilities of what we're drawn to what we're interested in. Whether that's because we. Because of our life experience or just. We're just. There's part of us that don't. Doesn't have control over that. I think I'm coming to realize in my older age of just like we are wired certain ways and we're drawn to certain things and not drawn to other things. And um, so I think just in a way, naturally, I've always, you know, been interested in these. These stories and telling. Telling stories that while can be super entertaining, have something deeper to them. So, you know, like when I worked on those sitcom shows, like they were super fun to work on. I like watching them sometimes they're fun, you know, super funny, but they often don't give you a lot of emotional nutrients. They just serve a different purpose. So when we set out to create Avatar, it was wanting to infuse some deeper meanings into that. And I think when you're dealing with fantasy stuff, bigger mythological stories, that is a bit naturally woven into it because there's usually a coming of age maturation element to those stories. So yeah, with Avatar, obviously like, yeah, genocide is there like it's a kid who lost his whole culture. But he doesn't in that story, like he's a very. He's naturally a. Aang was the main character. He's not a pessimistic kid. He's a very optimistic, you know, because of the culture he grew up in and just who he naturally is. So we always thought it was, you know, I think that's part of what has made that story resonant is like you're taking a character with a certain sensibility and putting him in the opposite situation that he would be used to, which is a war torn world. And he's supposed to somehow solve this violent conflict. And he is naturally a nonviolent pacifist basically. How do you solve. It's an impossible problem to solve. So I always say in these coming up with stories, like how it's not easy, but it's like, how can you make these plots that have like on the surface it seems impossible to solve. So like even, yeah, like with my book, it's like this kid who's like grieving all these losses and you know, his father, his father took off to walk the Appalachian trails, his mom's selling their house, his friend had this accident, she doesn't remember anything. So he's just going throughout like, how do you. And that is a much more real life thing where it's like, how do you it's not. It's actually not a problem to solve because, like, there's no solution at the end of the day. But it's like, how do you cope with this? How do you move through it and find some sort of balance or peace in your life?

Rachel:

Yeah. And I think your take on Jack is a lot different than the take on Aang. I mean, Jack is a totally different character in the way that he's processing it. Like, I can't. I mean, you would imagine Aang would see all these things and find the silver lining, but Jack looks at all of it and is like, this sucks.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yep.

Emily:

This is hard.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah. And for me, Jack is like, he embodies, like, our. Are kind of what we. How we usually react to loss and grieve, which is like, screw this. Like, this is the worst. And why do I have to go through this and why. You know, it's not fair. And all those things you think when you are faced with, like, a really, really rough life challenge.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Emily:

With. With a young audience. Right. When we're writing for younger minds, we. I would imagine. I don't write young adult stuff, and this is partially why, because I have a really hard time, like, with bringing. Talking about really heavy themes, because that also interests me, but in a way that brings, like, levity or some kind of takeaway that a kid. Because you don't want to just, like, dump a lot of depressing stuff on a kid and then be like, this is the world. Right. You want to give them something like we're writing to give them something that they can kind of take away and, you know, weave into their own lives to help them navigate certain circumstances. So I'm curious, sort of, how do you approach that? And is that approach different when you're writing in a, you know, in a speculative world, in a world that's not, you know, where there's some distance between the reader and the characters versus a contemporary world like Jack's.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

That's a good question. I think it's more of a difference of, like, maybe when you're writing for TV or film versus like, writing a novel. Because even when I was doing my middle grade novel and got to go to, like, all the publishing conferences and meet other authors and see what other books were coming out, it always struck me that, like, in publishing, it's even at younger ages, like, they were willing to tackle stuff in much more serious ways than you'd ever do on tv, partly because you get notes from standards and Practices. You can't say this. You can't say. To this day, we still have fights over, you can't say dead or they die. Even stuff like that, where fans of the show will probably remember the ambiguity of Jet's death. Yes, that was literally because we couldn't say he died. So there was like, we were talking around it, but that wasn't. We didn't mean to be like ambiguous about it. Like, we always meant that he unfortunately came to, you know, an untimely angel, terrible, terrible demise. So that is, I think one big difference is like, you can deal with that stuff and we obviously did. And on Korra, which is, you know, kind of more YA sensibility, like because they're teenagers, they're older, we, we did a lot of stuff that even now, like, how did we get away with that stuff? We had a murder suicide, we had Cora going through PTSD and you know, dealing with, with the trauma of that. So. But yeah, I always noticed in the, in the publishing world like that it did seem like there was. I don't want to say there's a different standard, but maybe there was. They don't have the people saying like the standards department saying, you can't use the word dead in this book, as far as I know.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

So I think that's part of the difference for sure. And then, yeah, just again, I think it's just my natural sensibility of like, I didn't really question it when we were doing it on the show because it just felt like, oh, this is the story we want to tell. It's a war, you know, but maybe that. Yeah, because it's fantasy. There is a little bit of distance, but it was. Yeah, it's a war torn world. They gotta fight the fire nation who's doing not great things to the world. So, you know, I think it's just, it comes up naturally through the storytelling. And then, yeah, like you mentioned Zuko earlier. I mean, part of that is he was like basically physically and emotionally abused as a child by his father, who's the bad guy at the story. And I think part of the reason it is so resonant and people still talk about it is like it showed him overcoming it. Like he didn't. Even though he did some. He also did some terrible stuff and you know, betrayed people and he was, he had a good heart deep down and he kind of had to find it and rediscover it. And so, yeah, similar with Jack. Like, actually probably Jack is more like Zuko than Aang. And yeah, like even. I guess that's the point too I look at the endings of things of, like, what am I supposed to take away with this? Am I supposed to do? You come away feeling like, oh, my God, life is hopeless and we are all going to die, and it's terrible, or is like, despite all this terrible stuff that has occurred, there is a way through. And that's. You know, that's what I tried to do with this book is like, there's still. There is some hope at the end. And Jack does go through an arc that, you know, forces him to, you know, like. Like most good books, like, the protagonist does not want to deal with the stuff they gotta deal with until the very end when they have their moment. And if it's tragedy, they don't deal with it. And you're Shakespeare and everybody dies and it's a tragic ending. I think I'm just more naturally drawn to that. These are more prescriptive stories in a way, where it's like, here is an example of a character going through the worst possible thing for this character to go through, and they find a way through it, and there's always a little hope at the end.

Rachel:

Yeah. I think one thing that you have done really well in both Here and Gone, and also obviously, in the Avatar world is just the amount of agency that you're still giving to your characters even in these really hard times. They don't feel like, you know, like, the gang is never just a group of kids that are just floating around on Appa's back, you know, like, they're doing things. They're doing things. And, like, even Jack, in the midst of his, you know, I don't want to do any of this. I hate it. This sucks. Why? No, get away from me. Like, he still is doing things, you know, like, it's a choice when he's going to. Like you mentioned the scene earlier with Rennie where Rennie pulls up on the. At the mall. It's like a choice of his to be like, he's trying to kidnap me to that mall cop. You know, like, that made me laugh. I was like, oh, no. He's actually saying, like, nope, I'm not gonna help you. Like, for some context, Rennie, one of these characters drives up to the side of this curb at the mall and is looking for his dog. And so he. He's kind of like a. They call him the creepy guy or something in the town. Like, nobody really likes him. He's a town outcast. And he asked Jack, have you seen my dog? And then this mall cop comes up and is like, is this guy bothering you? And Jack's like, yeah, he's bothering me. He's trying to kidnap me. And then, like, he just totally doesn't. He doesn't want to help. But later, you know, it. It's not too far later, but he finds the dog and he takes it back to Rennie's house. Yeah, I. I think, like, Jack still has a lot of choice, and, like, your younger characters still find that really well, as authors, I think it's really easy to look at our younger characters and be like, you don't have a lot of choice because you're young. It's like, no, our younger characters still have oodles of choice, like, tons of choice. And that's the beauty of their situation, is how they find their way through it is through that choice.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah. I think that's a good thing to think about with your characters is like, what agency do they have? Because I think there's scale of. You could have all the power in the world, and maybe you could make any choice you want. But even, like, yeah, a kid has. Their agency might be limited because of school or parents or rules or whatever, but in their world, yeah, like, every day there's, like, choices to be made. And I think that's what makes the characters interesting is, like, the actions they are taking in the story. So. So that was one big part of the revision process, was, like, going scene by scene and being like, okay, in this scene, it's not just Jack moping around and you're all in his head. And it's just, you know. Because I think, like, especially with literary novels, that can become a thing where you're just, like. You're kind of mired in the character's headspace. And that's fine for a while, but at some point, you're like, nothing's happening. I need something to happen. I think we're just wired that way for story, where it's just like, you want to see the character take some kind of action. So, yeah, a lot of times it was small things like that. It's like, Jack didn't have a ton of choice, but he had a choice to make. Like, do I be nice to this guy, or do I turn my back on him and call him a kidnapper? He takes the. You know, most of the story he's making not great choices. And, like. And even from the beginning, like, he finds out his mom's gonna sell the house. So a big part of the plot is like, him, like, I'm not gonna let her sell the house. I'm gonna sabotage this. And so he's taking steps to try to. Again, not. Not the greatest decision, but he's like. He has a goal, you know, he has a goal in mind of, like, I'm gonna keep this house. Because he thinks that will, you know, make everything okay and make the bad stuff go away and he can return to normal and make everything go back to the way it was.

Rachel:

Okay, so with, like, the planning, I guess I want to talk for a second just about the craft that you've had behind both here and gone, and the differences, which you've already shared a little bit about. But how do you feel like the storytelling knowledge is applicable across, you know, all these mediums? Because to me, like, I can still see such fundamental common denominators, you know, between. I mean, story itself is change. Stories change. Like, you have the same principles, but how do you feel like you've kind of learned or grown since the early parts of your career and then applied some of that same knowledge or some of that different execution to, like, both here and gone? What was that like to approach these two things a little differently?

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, I'm always trying to learn how to tell stories better because it is. There's this, like, even when you have the smartest writers in a room, it. You would think all. You'd all figured out real easy. And it's not easy. It's still, like. It's still a. In some ways, a mysterious process of, like, how do you get to this finished script or novel or whatever it is? I mean, a couple of things that I've definitely learned since the early days is, and especially with this book was like, what are you trying to say with your book? Like, some people call it theme, I guess, or a premise, or the argument you're trying to make.

Emily:

We call it a story point.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Story point. Yeah. It's like, what is the point of this story? Like, why am I gonna spend. Why is the reader gonna. Or the viewer gonna spend an hour or 10 hours reading or watching this thing? And then why am I, as the writer, gonna spend years of my life working on this thing? You know, it's gotta be something really that you really believe in. So, yeah, I think at the core, it's like, when you're starting out and this might come early on, it might come later, after you've written some stuff and you're just figuring out, what am I trying to say with this stuff? Usually there's something inside of you that is trying to find a voice, I think, and it depends, I think, because probably a lot of writers like myself, very introverted, who didn't grow up, like, expounding orally to people. You know, I think that's where I stand to this day. Still find the way I really express myself is through stories. That's where it comes out. Like, obviously, I can talk to people, talk to my wife about how I'm feeling, but it's just like, it's a different way of unearthing this stuff. So I do feel like it is a. In some ways, it's a cathartic process for the writer of, like, unearthing this stuff, putting it on the page. But then you want it to be like, it's not just. You're not just writing in a journal, just, you know, like, spewing your thoughts out randomly in a journal. It's like you then have to, like, how do I communicate this to an audience so they get it as well? And then that's where I feel like the craft stuff comes in of, like I said, is there an inciting incident in your story that kicks it off? Is there a turning point in a scene or a story that forces the character to make a choice? And then we see them make the choice, and then we. What happens after they make that choice? Was it. Was there a good outcome or a bad outcome or.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

So, yeah, a lot of the principles I still use. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Storygrid at all. Yeah, but that's the one. Like, of all the methodologies, that one makes the most sense to me. And it is more for. I mean, it applies to all stories, but I feel like it. It is more for novelists, which. There's so many books on how to write screenplays and how to do that stuff. And when I was floundering around trying to do my middle grade novels, I was like, where's the thing for the novelists? How do I. How do I take all those ideas? Yeah.

Emily:

We borrowed Save the Cat.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah. And, like, some of those are useful to a certain point. And then I find them. Like, I think that's part because, like, Save the Cat can tell you, like, these things should happen. It doesn't really tell you why they should happen. And that's the part I always feel like is often missing from writing books. Like, they'll give you the template sort of. Which is, again, is helpful if you're like, I have no idea where to even start. But often I could find myself, like, I could piece all these scenes together, and then it doesn't really amount to anything. Which is. I think that's the hard.

Emily:

Yeah.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

The hard part about writing this. Yeah. Is like, how to have it all mean something when you get to the. To the end of it.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Emily:

I'm curious. So you talked about how you like to, you know, process a lot of stuff through your creativity, which I think is. That's why we create as humans. I love that. But I'm curious, like, is that process for you, is that different when you're working on, you know, when you're working with a team on a show versus, like, your own novel? Like, are you collaborative when you write your novels, or is it just collaborative with tv? And, like, does that affect how you kind of process things or, like, what comes out?

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, I mean, the TV stuff is definitely way more collaborative because you're. Even though we've created these stories and stuff, you know, and in a way, like, it always starts with me and Brian alone, and then slowly we get teams. Teams and people. And now we have, like, so many people working. Yeah. So it's. Yeah, it's hugely collaborative. And that. That part of the, like, the idea phase and what does it mean? And stuff like that is, like, kind of baked in early on in the development process. So it's a mix because it's. Yeah. On the one hand, like, it's my sensibility, but that's also Brian's. And also the writer who's coming in. And also, you know, so you're like. If you're all in rough sync about, like, what this story should be, it can work pretty well. Sometimes you have an idea of what the story was supposed to be and the writer had a totally different idea because they're bringing something else to the table. And then, you know, then you gotta figure out, like, where the two ideas sort of overlap and where they don't. Yeah. I mean, I think novel writing is also collaborative because you're gonna probably be working with an editor or along the way, but it's definitely much more solo venture, I feel like. And I think that's what I like about it. It's. It does balance out, like, my day job now, which is like, I'm. I gotta be in meetings and talk about story with everybody. And then sometimes you just want to be in a room by yourself.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Writing. Figuring stuff out and not worry about, like, oh, my gosh. Or is this gonna be popular enough to be on what everybody else likes?

Emily:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Rachel:

Yeah. So you took both here and gotten is indie published, Is that right?

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah. I decided, I mean I had that experience with the middle grade novels. It was fine. I didn't get to finish the series but so I think partly because I knew this was like a, I didn't, I didn't want the pressure of like, oh, I gotta turn this draft at a certain point. Like it literally for years was just like my secret side project that like two people knew about. And then. Yeah. When it came to like, okay, well now I've, you know, I paid for my own editor. I paid for, you know, getting it copy edited, like did all the stuff you should do and I did send out some query letters and got a couple people who read it which were a couple agents who read it, which was super cool of them and they liked it. But the thing I kept hearing was it wasn't commercial enough. And I was like, yeah, I know.

Emily:

That was not, that wasn't deploying.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

But I think that is the, the challenge with the business of you know. Yes, the book business because like I've been on the other side so I totally get where the editors and agents come from, where it's like, you know, ultimately at the end of the day these companies want to make money. They're, they're, they're not like non for profit organizations.

Emily:

Yeah.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

So you know, they're going to look for books that they think even if they're modest, you know, sellers like that they're, they're not going to lose money. So it was a good exercise though because I got some good feedback and then I just decided like, yeah, I'm gonna, you know, I'd been learning about self publishing and sort of had my eye on like doing that with this. So I just, Yeah, I hired a cover designer, finished it up, did all the formatting stuff, all that fun stuff. Like I kind of like, because I'm used to like producing animation so like that stuff wasn't too like I didn't know how to do it all but like I knew I could learn how to do it. Yeah. And then if I didn't I could find the people who could help me. So yeah, I released it last year mainly on Amazon and through and then I have it through my website as well. I'm gonna, the next step is looking at like, oh, how do I like make this go wider? Like, yeah, you know, Amazon obviously has its issues but it also is like the biggest. You know, I was like, I just, I just need to focus on one thing at first, hopefully get the word out and then, you know, just kind of slowly, you know, that's what I like about books, too, is, like, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be the biggest hit, like, in the first year. Like, I've read so many stories about novels that, like, you know, it sold okay for the first couple years, and then for some reason, you know, it reached this threshold and people were talking about it, and then it became, like, a bestseller and stuff. So.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

And all the, like, feedback I've gotten on the book so far has been, like, super positive.

Rachel:

And that's incredible.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

The right. The right audience is slowly finding it, you know, like. And it's a mix of, like, younger readers, but then also, like, a lot of. I think, like, women in their 60s, like, have been reading. Like, I've gotten some. Some comments and, you know, like, emails about. From. From people who are just like. Because I think there is an audience of, like, older readers who read YA stuff because there's a lot of good, you know, good YA stuff out there, and. And they will deal with, you know, themes in a different way than, you know, maybe some just, like, mainstream adult novels will. So it's a, you know, I think much like Avatar, which kind of appeals to all ages. Like, it was made for kids, but, yeah, parents.

Rachel:

I watched it in college.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, everybody watches it and can find different things at different ages, I think. I think maybe that is also just a natural sensibility I have is like. Yeah, it is for, like, technically, I wrote it for a YA audience, but it's a. It's a very. It's a story about loss and grief, which is not just something kids go through. Like, we all go through it, and then we all are trying to figure out how to navigate it in different ways.

Emily:

There's also. There's also something powerful, I think about, like, reading about younger kids going through something that you went. You might have gone through as a kid and, like, healing your inner child somehow. You know what I mean?

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Totally.

Emily:

I feel like that could. That's another reason why people read, you know, younger stories.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah. It's not like we all figured our stuff out when we turned 18, so.

Emily:

Nope, far from it.

Rachel:

So I didn't even know I had.

Emily:

Stuff until I was, like, 25.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

There's more stuff underneath that stuff.

Rachel:

And then you just keep unpacking all the stuff and like, well, damn it, shoot.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Totally.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

But that's what I love about stories and novels also. Yeah. I think novels specifically is. It does. You go on this very immersive experience in your mind. It's different than sitting and watching a Show, which can be immersive, obviously, but it's just a very different experience, I guess. And it's kind of an. An experience as humans, we've had longer than we've had, you know, film and tv, obviously. So I think it's, you know, I'm always reading the articles about the, like, people who aren't. We don't read as much as we used to, and we're all distracted and our attentions can't handle long novels. And I'm like, I hope we don't lose that, you know, And I'm trying to, like, even for myself, just, like, take a break from TV and, like, I'm going to read some classic novels that I've never read before. And they're often much more interesting and immersive than even, you know, the big movies these days.

Rachel:

So, yeah. Yeah. I hope people keep reading long books because that's all I can write. My current draft is sitting at, like 131 30K, and I'm like, not done.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

It's so funny. I really. I love reading long books. I found it so hard so far, hard to write long books. But I do like reading.

Rachel:

They're fun. Yeah. So I know you have. I know you have kids. You have twins, right?

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, I have twin boys and girls. They're almost nine now.

Rachel:

That's crazy. That's awesome. How do they deal with these kind of themes? I mean, are they reading material where they're getting used to? Like, I feel like good versus evil is always so it never goes away, you know, like, that we teach kids, like, infants about good versus evil. But, like, how do they deal with some of these more serious themes?

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, we try to be pretty open with our kids and not, like, not, you know, just expose them to whatever's happening. Like, you know, there's death in the family. We'll talk about it if there's, you know, I think. I think that's the one big thing I kind of ended up learning from my own book was just, like, this idea of, like, acknowledging loss. It's not about, like, solving the problem. Like I said, like, you can't solve it. But it's like so much of our culture and depends on your family and probably your religious upbringing. But, like, is like this sort of like, oh, that doesn't. We don't talk about that stuff, or, yes, that happened, but we're gonna pretend like it didn't happen or that kind of stuff. So we're, you know, we're definitely trying to have an environment where it's like they feel like they could talk to us and we could talk to them. And, you know, they have their own challenges. Like, my son was diagnosed with autism and, you know, he, he gets it. Like he, you know, we just talked talk about what it means and how he processes stuff differently and yeah, emotion. I mean, they go to a progressive school, which is nice because they talk about emotions at school and how to, you know, they have little jars where they go in and put their stick of like, I'm feeling bad today. And then you can change it halfway through the day. Like, stuff that I'm like, oh my God, what would have happened if I grew up in a school that did this? You know, would it be. Yeah, you know, hopefully, you know, just making them more emotionally intelligent also.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

But yeah, there are big readers now and, which is cool. And I've read like the Percy Jackson series with my son and you know, that gets, that has some dark stuff in it too. Yeah, I think he's totally fine with, like, dark stuff. My daughter gets more scared, like scary movies, that sort of thing. But then at the same time, it's funny because they'll like, do. They did this comic at school about, because they're learning about coyotes, I think. And my daughter drew this like three panel comic that was like, about these two coyotes. And then the last panel is just like the coyotes eating a rabbit and the rabbit's just like bleeding out. It's got little crosses in the eyes. And it was just like, this is, and I think we asked her about it. She's like, that's just nature. That's just like the circle of life, man. Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah.

Rachel:

I have a four year old and she definitely seems to understand, like, way more than what I would expect of her to understand. I, I. Kids are so resilient.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah.

Rachel:

I feel like they, they pick it up and they get it and they filed away. And then we're like, like the other day my daughter was, we were so we, when she was born, we had two dogs. One of that, one of those dog assistants passed away. So now we have, we have one dog. And we were talking about our older dog. His name was Izzy. And then we have our younger dog, Loki. Loki is now getting old. He's 10. He's an Alaskan malamute. And so his breed doesn't is a shorter life expectancy. Right. Than normal. So I was talking to her about how, oh, we used to have Izzy. And she was like, where is I? And I was like, well, Izzy passed away. And she was like, was he coming back? I was like, no, he. He passed away. He's. He's gone. He was old, and. And she was like, well, Loki. You said Loki's old. I was like, loki's getting there. He's, you know, he's 10. And she was like, am I old? And I was like, no, no, you're not. She was like, I'm new.

Emily:

I'm new.

Rachel:

That's what she said. She's like, I'm new. I'm four. I was like, yes, you're. You're new. You've got plenty fresh. Don't even worry about. And you can, like, see her start to put pieces together of, like, look, Izzy died and is not coming back. And, like, she's new, so she'll last a little longer. And she just put on her shoes and went to school. And, like, how's it, like. I was like, okay, do we need to talk more about this? Like, nope, I'm fine. I'm like, all right, cool.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, they're definitely. I mean, kids are aware of. And especially. Yeah. If you have. Like, we had pets, too. And even though they were. Yeah, it's interesting because they were, like, pretty young. Like, we had a dog, too. He was super sweet. And they were babies when he. I mean, they were maybe. I'm trying to think how old they were. Maybe like two or three when he passed away. And they generally don't like dogs in general, but, like, they totally get. They. As babies, they had a great experience with dog, but they still talk about him as if, like. I mean, obviously they've seen pictures of him and them with him, you know, when they were younger. But they'll. You know, to this day, they'll still talk about Truman, who was their favorite dog or something. Like, so these. Yeah. They're just. I think. Yeah. Kids are aware of this stuff for sure. And then it's just, like, helping them process it. And again, not treat it like, oh, it's this, you know, shadowy subject we shouldn't talk about. Yeah.

Emily:

You two and your sweet story is about your pets. Me, My daughter. You need to talk. So my daughter's 19 months, so different stage of life. I mean, she's kind of in this place because she goes to daycare in the day, so we don't always know, like, what words she knows.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah.

Emily:

So we just got chickens. We got four chicks, like, laying hens. And so they're. They're only, like, two weeks old. They're very little chicks. And when we went to pick them up. We, we went into like the room at the co op where all the chicks were. We got to pick out four chicks. And we walked in and she goes, buck, buck. And I was like, I didn't know you knew what a chicken said. Right. So she just calls them bok box. They're her. We go visit her box. So the other night I texted the story, story to Rachel because it just threw me so much. She was eating chicken. I had made her this like butter chicken and. And she was loving it. So she's just eating. My husband and I are doing the dishes and I just, I just, you know, offhandedly say to him, like, I'm so glad she likes the chicken. Like, thank goodness I found something else she might eat at school. And she just looks at me and goes, she points, points to her plate and goes dead in the eye. It's like, you barely speak English. I don't know, I don't know how to explain this to you.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, that's a tricky one.

Emily:

Oh, it's funny.

Rachel:

Light bulb moment.

Emily:

Yeah. So, yes, they do. They understand so much more than we give them credit for.

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah. It's just like so important to te. To like, teach them about it, like to deal with it, to manage it. And I love that we have stories to do that. It just thinks that. I think it makes our jobs as parents easier. But also like, we learn. That's how we learn. We learn through storytelling. So, like, to have that.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it does seem like the first thing you do as a parent. If there's an issue, you're like, is there a kid's book about this? I must go to the library and find one that talks about it.

Rachel:

Yeah, like five kids books about potty training.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah. Like, yeah. Even from an early age, it's like learning about. I mean, there's so many, like, picture books about death and grief and stuff. Like, they don't. Yeah, they don't. It's not so, like they don't use the. On the nose. But yeah, we've read some that were like, kind of got me teary, you know, really, like a good children's book is just like a work of art.

Rachel:

They are. Yeah.

Emily:

Thank goodness for books.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yep.

Rachel:

Yeah. Well, we know we're getting to the top of our time that we have together, so we want to be cognizant of your time as well. But do you have any, like, final wrap up thoughts about both Here and Gone and Sirius topics and anything that, you know, real life Comparisons to wrap us up. And if. If not, then we can share how to find you.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Yeah, I just. People like Avatar and Korra, I think they're going to like this book. Like, it's not a fantasy book, so I'm not trying to sell it as, like, it's the same thing, but, yeah, emotionally, I think, like, we've talked about there's similar themes. Um, you know, some people have pointed out, like, because I wrote the episode about Cora going through ptsd.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

And I often get, you know, fans saying how much that meant to them and help them through, like, their own, you know, traumatic times and stuff. Which is, as a writer, like, probably one of the best compliments you can get because you're like, oh, this thing I wrote actually helped somebody. That's amazing.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

So the people who kind of responded to those episodes have written and said this has a similar vibe and that Rennie is like the Uncle Iroh of this story, which I honestly didn't think of when I was writing it, but it kind of makes sense. He's very philosophical and stuff and is there for the young person, even though the young person might not want to listen to what they have to say.

Rachel:

Yeah, Yeah, I love that. And I can speak as a promoter of Korra. I agree. And I think that scene in particular, like, just a personal note, it is really meaningful. And like, my husband has diagnosed ptsd, and so to watch that and to watch that together, because I introduced him to Avatar, like, as adults, I watch Avatar. My ex boyfriend introduced it to me, and then we watched Korra live. That was around the same time when Korra was coming out, and that was just incredible. And then broke up in the middle of Korra, and I was like, I'm.

Emily:

Not gonna own this.

Rachel:

I'm gonna keep watching it. It's mine. And then I met my husband a year or two after and then introduced to him and we watched everything together. And yeah, they are really meaningful. And anyway, thank you. Thank you for writing stories like this. They're so important, not just to younger audiences, to young Brian, but to all.

Emily:

Audiences, all of us who are realizing we have a true shoot.

Rachel:

Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. We're gonna put links in the show notes to your website and to the sales page for both here and gone. I'm really enjoying it. Um, and this has been a wonderful conversation.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Um, yeah, great question.

Rachel:

Thanks for coming on.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

So great to talk to you both. Thanks.

Rachel:

Thanks.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

Bye.

Emily:

Bye. If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.

Rachel:

Sign up now to get our free email course. The Magic of Character Arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers slipping pages all through the night.

Emily:

Link in the show notes. We'll see you there.

Michael Dante DiMartino:

It.