Story Magic

77 - Plot + character in the crime/thriller genre with Marybeth Whalen

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Today, Emily & Rachel talk about all things plot, character, process, and crime/thriller with guest Marybeth Whalen.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

  • How to use character to drive the plot of crime/thriller novels
  • The individuality of every writer's process
  • Developing characters through interviews
  • How process changes over time, from book to book and season to season

Read Every Moment Since now: https://marybethwhalen.com/books/every-moment-since/

Get on Marybeth's newsletter: https://marybethwhalen.substack.com/

Marybeth's website: https://marybethwhalen.com/

Learn more about The Book Tide: https://thebooktide.substack.com/

Ready to make readers so in love with your characters they can’t stop biting their nails in anticipation?  Grab The Magic of Character Arcs free email course: https://www.goldenmayediting.com/arcsmagic


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Emily:

Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.

Rachel:

I'm Rachel.

Emily:

And I'm Emily.

Rachel:

And today we are going to talk so many things. Plot, character, crime, thriller, everything genre, with our very special guest, Mary Beth Whelan. Thank you so much for joining us.

Marybeth Whalen:

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Rachel:

Yay. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us, Marybeth. We cannot wait to talk all things writing today. But before we jump in, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your writing journey and what brought you here? What brought you to this point in your writing career?

Marybeth Whalen:

So what brought me here was four years of tears and angst. And from 2020, when I began the book we're going to talk about today, to this moment has taken four years. And, man, I feel every bit of it. But prior to that, I do. I have written nine other novels, so this is not my first go round, but you could have fooled me because it felt like my first go round. It was the first time I wrote this book, which is very significant. And I. I mean, I majored in writing in college. I say I have no other viable skills, basically, except that's the only thing I know how to do is write. So that's what I've devoted my life to. That and being a mom. So I've got six kids, which we'll talk about probably later because everybody always asks about that and it kind of precedes me into most rooms. There she is. She has six kids. What's wrong with her? But I am a huge reader, always have been. I read very young, and my mom used to send me outside to play. Cause she thought I spent too much time reading. And I would pretend to go outside and sneak back in the house when she wasn't looking and hide in my closet to keep reading. So I just. I love words. I've always loved words. They are my dearest friends. So I love that.

Rachel:

My daughter is my daughter's four, and she is in her peak energy all the time mode, no matter what. And she loves to play outside, and I love that for her. And I'm like, hey, why don't we go inside and read a book? She's like, no, let's play outside.

Marybeth Whalen:

I'm like, okay, yeah, I was probably a dream kid when you think about that. I much preferred reading to running around, but I. I love that.

Rachel:

So 10th book. That's incredible. 10th book. Every moment since and every moment since is crime thriller are all of your books in that direction of crime. What makes you love this genre?

Marybeth Whalen:

Well, I love. I have abiding love for true crime. And then honestly, this book was a reaction to that. And we can talk about that in a little bit of. But so crime informs my stories. I wouldn't say that my stories are about solely crime. It's mostly, I say I write aftermath stories, something tragic. Usually there's a crime involved, but something tragic happens to a community or a family, a group of friends, whatever it may be, and they have to learn to get past it and to find light and darkness. And I. I love to write redemption stories. I love, I say that I put everybody in a big soup pot, give them a big stir, and I love to watch them float back up because they will. It's just hard to. Sometimes it's hard to figure out a way to do that. And so all of my stories in one way or the other, I will say the first four I wrote were very sweet. Back in 2010s era, the Nicholas Sparks was kind of at the height of his game. So I wrote four very beachy, sweet, very sweet love stories that all surrounded an inanimate object that brought two people together, all set on the beach or at the beach where I actually now live, Sunset Beach, North Carolina. So those were the first four things I did. And I kind of cut my teeth on those. Learned how to write a novel as I was writing novels and then switched with the fifth one and did a story about a near drowning at a neighborhood pool and how it affects that neighborhood, which that actually came out of a real thing that happened in my neighborhood. And I just was very touched by the way, the neighbors, my real life neighbors responded to that and talked about it. It was almost like, where were you on 911 for our neighborhood? Like that. We would get together and people would say, I was at home when I got the phone call or I heard the ambulance. And so I wanted to talk about something happening like that. So that was the first book that I kind of diverged from the sweet, beachy romances and wrote that one. And people were like, okay, that's. That was sort of a hard write on your part. But it was what I really wanted to write the whole time. It's just to. I love to examine sort of suburbia and what we're all thinking and all hiding and possibly not saying so.

Emily:

I love that. I love that sort of. What did you say that you write? A aftermath. Yeah, the aftermath. I think that's such a beautiful way to think about crime stories because people often will say that I don't need to do character work for a crime story or a murder mystery or stories like that. And I think that that's a beautiful way to think about how powerful the character work of those types of stories can be because something terrible has happened, and that impacts the people who it happened to. It impacts the people who are responsible for it. It impacts the people who are investigating it. And so thinking about it as like, well, what's the character aftermath of this plot event that's happened, that's just like a cool way to think about it.

Marybeth Whalen:

Yeah. But I will say that that is the thing about, I said I'd get back to it, so I'll get back to it. Now. With true crime, we've become such a true crime obsessed culture. I mean, there's new true crime specials seem hitting every streamer all the time. And, you know, what's the latest case everybody's talking about and all that, and I'm chief among centers on that. I'm right there watching. But what I started thinking about a lot about which led to this book is we all can turn off a podcast. You know, we can binge it, and then we're done and we go on with our lives, or we can finish Dateline and go to bed. These people can't do that. The people that are living these, these things, and these are, these are real stories about real people. And I think it's very easy to forget when we're being entertained by this stuff, that fact. And so I really wanted to examine, I chose a missing child, but we could choose anything and examine the ripple effects of a crime. I mean, this one's through decades. I mean, these people, they are profoundly changed by one single night. And not just his relative. You know, Davey is the missing boy, not just his relatives, but people who were adjacent to that night. And it just, it's something I think that we should all be thinking of, at least as we consume this entertainment medium, if you want to call it that.

Rachel:

So, so what's your brain process like when you're approaching? And we can use every moment as an example. Did you have, like, the, the idea of what happened to Davey first, and then you were like, let me see how I can take this to each different character and how it impacts them? Or were you thinking more along the lines of, like, these are people with a really with an event that happened that deeply changed them or traumatized them or affected them. So what should that event be? You know, how do you normally approach that?

Marybeth Whalen:

Well, I said soup pot earlier, and for a specific reason. I feel like when I'm going to write a novel, I am making a soup, and it's fall season, so this is perfect time to talk about soup. And, you know, you get, you have your, you pick a meat, maybe if you're not vegetarian, and you pick some veggies and maybe you want to starch, maybe potatoes or rice with noodles, whatever you're going to put in it, and you decide it's going to be beef broth or chicken broth. I mean, you decide. Can you tell? Did a lot of cooking for a lot of people. And you, you put it all in the pot, and you give it a good stir, you add some seasoning. And so when I am writing a novel, that's what I'm doing. I'm saying, okay, what is the pot? Well, in this case, it's a little boy goes missing in 1985. That's all I knew, actually. I didn't know the 1985 part. I just knew a child went missing, then it became Davey. And so that's the pot. And then I'm like, okay, who's gonna be in this story? Who's gonna go in this pot? That I'm gonna give a good stir? And you talked about character, so here we go.

Emily:

Yeah, yeah.

Marybeth Whalen:

They come to me. They just show up. And usually, especially with crimes involved, usually, they come to me to kind of plead their case of why they should be understood and why they're misunderstood. And so I hear them out, and my husband hates when I talk about this, but I'm talking about it anyway. So I called the waiting room, and when they come to me, I'll be like, that's very interesting. You sound like a really good candidate. Have a seat, and I'll call on you when it's time. And so I've got I don't know how many scenarios, like a boy goes missing in 1985 sitting inside my head. And so they're all in the waiting room. And when I go to pick who's going in the pot, I'm like, okay, who's sitting there? And a lot of times I will think about a book for years, and it's just not there yet. I might have the meat or I might have some rice, but I don't have the whole soup. And so I'll be like, have a seat. We gotta wait and see who shows up. And does this sound completely crazy? No, no, not at all.

Emily:

That's totally, totally.

Rachel:

We get it. We're like, yeah.

Marybeth Whalen:

My husband tells me he's like, okay, this is schizophrenia. People who are not there. So if talk to you, but everybody else thinks it's cool, so let's go with it. But, so, and they really are, they're all, and I hear from them often, they'll kind of come up to the desk. It's almost like the DMV. They'll come up like, I've been waiting a really long time. I'm like, we're not there yet. Have a seat. We'll talk to you when it's ready. And so with, when I started thinking about the missing boy, first of all, he showed up. Like I said, I didn't. I just knew it was a missing child. Davey showed up and he was wearing the back to the future jacket. So I feel like everybody in the world has seen back to the future and if you haven't, you can google it. But it's a very distinct Jean Jacket that Marty McFly wore with the paisley on the cuffs when it was turned up and he was wearing that. And in that moment, I knew immediately he was the center of the story. And that's how I knew it was 1985 because I was, that's why I said it in fall of 1985 because that movie came out in that summer. So I was like, okay, he's eleven years old. This was his favorite movie. He begged anybody who would take him to take him. He wore the soundtrack out that summer. And for his birthday, this is not a spoiler. His mom made him like she, sir, she got a jean jacket and altered it so that he would have a Marty McFly jacket. And so that's, I started with him. And then tabitha showed up and she is his mother. And the first time I saw her, she had her back to me and she was standing at a kitchen counter and she was writing something. And I was like, what is she writing? Well, I had to figure that out. And this stuff takes time, you know? And so before I started that book in 2020, I had been messing around with it for probably three years. In my head. I, so I tell my husband a lot. I'm like, I don't look like I'm working, but I am because it's a lot of internal just hashing out. And eventually they all came.

Emily:

Does it just live there? Does it just live there? Or do you like, write it down somewhere?

Marybeth Whalen:

You know, this is so funny. And I'm not going to take credit for this. I have a very good friend who is also a writer and her name is Ariel Lohan. She wrote the Frozen river, which was really big. Has been really big this year. And she says that you'll have a lot of ideas as a writer. And if you go to a cocktail party, you know, everybody pretty much wears the basic little black dress. Right. Okay. What about that woman that comes in and she's wearing this stunning red dress, and everybody can't help but notice her because she's wearing a red dress, and she said, you will have a lot of little black dress ideas come through. You may need to write those down. But the red dress idea, you never have to write it down.

Emily:

Oh, interesting.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Marybeth Whalen:

So. And that's. So, yeah, some things I will scribble down. You hardly ever go back and read them, though. I mean, because the ones that I feel like are supposed to emerge, do. And the people that keep talking to me, that keep showing up. I have a little girl right now. She's nine years old, and she's a fish out of water story. And she sees this family for who they really are, and I can't wait to write her. And she's been with me I don't even know how long, and it's just not. It's just not been time yet. And so she's waiting. So, yeah, they just. They're very. They're very real to me, all of them. And I root for them, and I want them to get their time on the page. And honestly, it's nice when I finally do write them, because they go away and it leaves more room for other people to show up.

Rachel:

So this kind of reminds me of. I think it's Elizabeth Gilbert. So, Emily, you're gonna have to tell me if that's true or not, but that idea that this person I'm thinking of talks about where, like, the ideas just kind of float around in the ether and you have to, like, snag them. Right, like, that's Elizabeth Gilbert. Right?

Emily:

Yeah, it's.

Marybeth Whalen:

I've read that.

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah, that's.

Emily:

Yeah. From big magic.

Rachel:

Yeah. That's what this reminds me of for you, Mary, where it's just like, you just grab them and you're like, this is. They come to you.

Marybeth Whalen:

Well, she even says, if you don't, you risk them going to someone else.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Marybeth Whalen:

Which is sort of ominous and frightening. I have had ideas that, you know, I'll see come out and print. I'm like, well, you didn't move fast enough. That's on you. So.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

That's incredible, though. I mean, I think you're so right. When they stand out to you, they just. It feels like they've got their claws in your brain and you can't let go, and they're there. So for every moment since you took Davey, you took Tabitha, and you, like, started to build outward from there. Like, you were really focused on them as characters. Yeah. So then you, did you pull in more characters? Did you start to explore, like, what happened to Davey? Or did that come almost later?

Marybeth Whalen:

No, I very much, I'm a plotter, and, well, I'll go ahead and tell that. So with six kids, when I did get to write, I started my first novel when the youngest was three. And so they ranged age at that point from 16 down to three. And it was a very lively, as you can imagine, busy household with lots of activities and lots of going and doing and all that. And so if I got a half hour to write, I had to be ready to go. I didn't have time to just sit at the desk and go, well, what are we writing today? You know, I didn't. I, so that's where plotting was instrumental to me. Otherwise, I would waste that 15, 2030 minutes figuring it out. And about the time I figured out, it'd be time to take somebody to baseball or, you know, whatever. So, yeah, I had to, I sort of, by no other choice, had to learn to plot. And once you do it enough times that way, it's just second nature. So I very much need a plot to feel comfortable at this point. I feel like I'm free falling if I don't have that net under me. And so I did spend a lot of time figuring, as you said, figuring out what happened, and that is harder for me. Character is, is very kind of organic and plot I have to work at, and I will spend a lot of time on that. And I'll have, I'll have plots that are like 120 beats or points or whatever you want to call them on a legal pad. But having that much makes me feel comfortable. It's like I can always cut. It's just very hard to add if you don't have enough.

Emily:

So, yeah, so you have these characters who are just hanging out in the waiting room, and then you're like, okay, I'm going to tell this story of Davey, and I'm going to pick these folks out of the waiting room. How do you then take those characters and make a plot out of them?

Marybeth Whalen:

Well, one of the things that I do that is I was taught, I don't know if you all are familiar with Susan Meissner. She is a historical fiction author. She's wonderful. And I mean, this was years and years and years ago. I went to a workshop that she taught, and one of the things she taught us to do was to interview your characters. And I have the handout she gave me. It's, you know, I don't know where she got got it, but I still literally use that same hanging by a thread handout that she gave me originally. It's almost like magic. I have to pull that one out. But I will sit down and interview the characters. And if you're interested, if you're listening this and you're interested, I'd say Google it. How to interview your characters, because I have done that just to make sure that I can say, that's a resource online, and there's tons of questionnaires that you can do to do it. Mine is maybe 1520 questions. I don't even know how many it is, but I will take a day. And if I have four characters, I interview all four. You know, I. And I make it, like, I have a good block of time, and I do it longhand, and I just ask them questions, these questions, and it is an amazing process to hear what they say back again. My husband's like, very weird. Very, very weird. You're asking people, he's not a writer, he's an engineer. Like he said, okay, yeah, like my husband, yeah, we make one good brain, right and left. But, um, yeah. So he's like, okay, you ask questions of people who aren't there, and they answer you. I'm like, yes, they answered me. And they most surprising answers. And I will do that before I plot, because I get a lot of plot points out of that exercise. And I find out so many things as far as, like, their backstory and what they're hiding. And one of the best questions I ask is, what are you afraid of? And the things that they tell me that then gets woven into the story. And so I would highly recommend if you're not incorporating that into your practice. And then I also, I mean, I read all the same plotting books. Everybody else, you know, save the cat, writes a novel, trying to think. Michael Haig. If you've ever heard of Michael Haig, it's H A U g E. If you look him up, he's got a website. He was instrumental in me learning the plot structure that I use. He's even. It's like, you can get a bookmark with it on there. And he taught me a lot about the way that our brains interpret story. That's one of his big things. And that we as a society think cinematically, and we don't realize that we. We expect our stories to be cinematic. And so if you use more of the screenplay plotting, you know, I don't know which method. I'll call it a method. If you use more of a screenplay plotting, you won't know it. Like, people will say to you, it was like I was reading. It was like it was a movie. I'm like, well, that's not by accident. I mean, that, yeah, that's calculated. And so I use a lot of that sort of stuff to plot, and I do figure out, you know, I know the moment at the 50% mark where it splits into. And I do have all of that in, in my, you know, toolbox, so to speak. And I don't know, somehow it just all eventually comes together. But it is nothing. It's not an easy process, and it's not for the faint of heart. There's a lot of. There's a lot of groping around in the dark before you get to it.

Rachel:

So, yeah, so you've talked about how you develop characters and you're asking them questions, interviewing them. Coincidentally, we're actually teaching a backstory workshop this weekend. So.

Marybeth Whalen:

Cool.

Rachel:

We have been diving so much into backstory, but so you dive into their past and interview them to get to know them, figure out, like, what plot points come from that. But then you also have done a lot of work to understand what structure works for you. So when you're plotting the other pieces, the pieces that don't necessarily come from the character interviews, are you thinking, like, okay, I know I want this plot point to evoke some feeling in this character, and so I'm going to make this kind of plot point, or do you come up with, like, oh, no, this plot point needs to happen. And then I know it affects these people in other ways. My question kind of boils down to how do you merge these two things, character plot, into one cohesive story? That's, as you were saying earlier, like, it's more about how they're dealing with the problem than about the crime itself.

Marybeth Whalen:

I guess I mostly think of it in terms of how, and I said this before, like, what are they hiding and what are they most of want to keep from coming out? And it's kind of a chess game of how, when and how do you reveal those things, and what do you keep from the reader? What do you keep, you know, when do you divulge it to the reader? And mostly that's what I'm thinking of while I'm trying to plot it out in a way that, number one, the pacing is decent enough that you don't give up on the book, and number two, that it's revealed in a way that doesn't seem contrived or forced. And so, like I said, I mean, I'm doing a lot of work of what has to be revealed. When is it going to be revealed? What can I give the reader a little early on that doesn't spoil everything, but still is a kind of a gift? So that's kind of what I'm thinking when I'm structuring it. I don't even. I'm sitting here thinking, like, I don't know, what do I do?

Emily:

It's so helpful. It's so fascinating hearing how every writer's processes different and, like, works for them. I think it's so fun. So I'm curious. You hinted earlier that every moment since has been a little different for you from your other books. Would you be willing to tell us a little bit about that and.

Marybeth Whalen:

Yeah, sure.

Emily:

Why and how?

Marybeth Whalen:

Well, the same that came with this book. No. So I wrote this book, and the original way that I structured it, there is a little bit of a book within a book, because Thaddeus David, Davey's older brother, had written, has written a memoir about being the brother of the family of one of the most famous missing kids in America. Book has done extremely well. He's traveling around, going to bookstores, enjoying a little bit of notoriety, and he's sort of become the de facto spokesperson of the family because he's put himself in this position. And so I thought that my original concept was that what happened the night Davey disappeared would emerge through the memoir, if that makes sense. So you would be reading along as the reader in the. In the story, and then there would be an excerpt from the memoir. And that's the original way that I did it. And it did not work until it went out, because actually, the truth of the matter is I. My agent and I parted ways over this book. I had been writing very thriller, more thriller, suburban. I don't even know what to call them. They call it suspense, I guess that's what domestic suspense, I think, is what they termed it. And she kind of wanted me just to go, and I had an idea and everything. She kind of wanted me just to do that. But this book was enough of a divergence that if I did it, the publisher wasn't going to that that wasn't the home for it. And so she was kind of pushing me not to do this book. And I just almost couldn't do anything else. There's just. I didn't have the passion for anything else. I really wanted to do this, and I kicked myself many times over the next four years without. I'm just kidding. I didn't. But it. I did question it a couple of times, like, you idiot, you probably should have just done the thing you knew how to do instead of this venture that took me to wandering through many wildernesses. But so when it. I had to find another agent, is what I'm saying. And so when it went out to agents, one of the words that I kept hearing repeated was, I feel removed from the action. And sometimes literary people will say things that I'm like, I'm sure if I were smarter, I wouldn't know what you mean by that. I don't. I don't know what you mean by removed from the action. And I puzzled and puzzled and puzzled. Like, what do you mean, removed from the action? And all of a sudden, it made me realize, if I tell you a story about something that happened, it's not nearly the same as if you were there. Yeah, yeah. And that's. That's what they meant by removed, but they didn't explain that to me. And it took my slow self many, many months to figure that out. And once I did, though, I was like, oh, that's what the problem is. Thaddeus is telling you what happened to him. You, reader, are not in the midst of the action. You're not happy. And also, Thaddeus is couching his language severely. That's part of the story. And so I finally, the lightbulb went on, and I was like, oh, I need to write the 1985 storyline that needs to be on the page, which, as you can imagine, was a massive revision. And also, ultimately, in that process, I had five characters. I took one out. So that drastically reduced my word count, which made me cry. And I had to add that back somehow, which I added it back through the 1985, obviously, but it was. That was another whole hurdle to get through, of just taking it back down to the stud, so to speak, and rebuilding it. And I ended up doing that and then had a whole nother round of trying to get an agent like I had never done it before, which was a humbling and transformative experience. It was good for me. You know, you look back on things like this and you go, okay, it was good for me, but it was hard. I mean, it was a very. Lots, like I said, lots of questions of why did I do this to myself and why this story? And will this story ever see the light of the day and all the things that pretty much any writer goes through?

Rachel:

So, yeah, I mean, so how did you answer those questions to yourself? Was it just like, I can't let these characters go, or like, I.

Marybeth Whalen:

This is.

Rachel:

Needs to get out? I mean, what, those are such. Those are moments that every writer experiences, and there are some writers who give up, and you didn't, so why didn't you give up?

Marybeth Whalen:

Little weird things would happen. I mean, it just, like, I would be so close to being like, forget it. I'm not doing this. Forget it. And something would. Something. The power of love would come on the radio, which is, you know, Huey Lewis in the news, the theme song to back to the future. It would come on the radio at the exact time I was thinking, I'm done. Just, I mean, that's a very simple one. I can tell lots of stories about it. Ariel Lohan, who I've already quoted, I was on the phone with her, and I was like, I'm done. I'm not doing this. I'm going to write another book. This is not worth it. And she goes, you can do that. You absolutely can do that. That's totally your choice. She goes, I can't believe you give up on Davey like that, though. That is a low blow. And it's nothing at all, you know? And so. And she's actually. That's in the acknowledgments. If you read the acknowledgments that's in the acknowledgments to the book. I say to her, you know, if, if it wouldn't have been. If she hadn't put it that way, I'm not sure that I would have persevered at that moment. And I hung up the phone, I was like, she's right. I can't do that. And I picked it up and went forward again, and it was a. But there were a lot of little moments like that. You know, you have those moments. You're like, this is not worth it. I'm not doing this. I'll pick, you know, and then there's always that little, you know, if you want to use the red dress mentality, there's always that little flirtatious idea in the corner that's like, hey, I look pretty good. And you're like, oh, you are. You are so crisp and new, and you have not tortured me yet. Let's talk. You know, so you do kind of want to run away from. From hard ideas, but you know, sitting here on the day before it comes out, I would say it's all work.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Marybeth Whalen:

There were moments, uh, when I got turned down by an agent that I thought was a sure thing on our anniversary night, I. That was. That was a low blow. Yeah, that was hard. That was hard. But, um, you know, those things happen, too, so. But here I am. And it was worth it. I would say it was worth it. If you're out there and you're struggling with this, listen for the signs that you're supposed to stick with it, and then. And then heed them, because you might just be really, really glad you did. And I'm very glad that this story got told and that these people, I hope, will do exactly what we talked about at the beginning and make people think about real people struggling and I. And going through things, and it's not just entertainment.

Emily:

So, yeah, I love the tenacity that you had to cling to just, like, yourself, like, in, like, what you really wanted and the thing you really wanted to say. I think that's. And, like, how that. That all worked out in the end. And I think it's even more impressive because you had a career behind you with, like, a proven, like, I can do this thing right. I can write these types of books and, like. And I know I will be fine. And I think it takes, like, once. Once you have proven that to yourself, it takes even more guts to be like, I'm going to change my mind, right? I'm going to go this other path, even though I know that works, because that's what my soul is telling me to do. And I think that that's really beautiful because there are so many writers, right, who don't have that proven path behind them, who are looking at something, at the book that they want to write and being like, am I crazy? No, you're nothing.

Marybeth Whalen:

I felt crazy many times. Trust me. Trust me, I felt crazy. And I don't think I've ever cried over a book, ever. I mean, it's always just. I mean, it might have been hard, but I didn't. I don't think I've ever cried. I cried so many times with this book. My husband blessed his heart that night, our anniversary, I remember he took. He, like, kind of scraped me off the floor, and he was like, we're still going out. And we. And I was like, well, I don't. I didn't want to go to our original place. It was like, really. It was going to be nice. And I was like, it's not worth it. I'm not in a good mood. And so we went to just this little quarter place, and lo and behold, we picked trivia night. And we live in a very retiree heavy area because we live at the beach and there were all these retirees in there doing trivia. And I'm just sitting there answering the questions because I'm like such a seventies and eighties music junkie. And so I'm answering all the questions, and lo and behold, I did have a good time. It's been a trivia night, so. Yeah. But it was the best thing he could have done is scrape me off the floor and say, we're going out. You're gonna be fine.

Rachel:

I love that. Even though he doesn't, like, understand the character side of, like, these are people that talk to me and they're real. That's still so supportive of him.

Marybeth Whalen:

That's so nice.

Rachel:

Come on, let's go do something fun.

Marybeth Whalen:

He's super. He's. He is really, I have to say, have been super invested in the story because he's watched me four years of just crazy.

Rachel:

So, yeah, we need a community. We need the helpers, we need the writers, right? Like Ariel. And then we need our. Our other side. That can be like, I don't get it, but good job.

Marybeth Whalen:

I have a lot of those friends, too. Trust me. Trust me. So, yeah, that's good. Yeah. I say every writer needs friends who are writers. I don't know what I do without mine.

Emily:

That's why also, sometimes I feel like we need friends who aren't writers to remind us that we're humans outside of our books who could just be like, I love you as a person. You're actually not just your books.

Marybeth Whalen:

That's true. That's true.

Emily:

Like, your husband who's like, actually, it's our anniversary and you're a human who's married to me, and we're gonna go.

Marybeth Whalen:

Out, act like this is not the end of the world. Get up. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Emily:

Love it.

Rachel:

So let's shift a little bit, because I do want to hear this story that you kind of mentioned to us about being a mom in writing and, like, locking yourself in a room.

Marybeth Whalen:

So. Yeah.

Emily:

How do you write ten books with kids?

Marybeth Whalen:

I have one kid.

Rachel:

I'm like, oh, well, I'm doing my best. Right?

Marybeth Whalen:

Like, yeah, when you have one kid, one kid, it seems like a lot. You know, when you have two kids, every. Every iteration of our family has seemed like a lot at the time. You know, when you, short of having triplets, you take it on, usually pretty gradually, and you adapt and then you take another and you adapt. But no, I put off writing. I. I've wanted to write a novel for as long as I can remember, but I always would say, well, I'll just have to do that someday because, you know, I've got the kids. And everybody would noddingly understand with me, of course, of course you can't write. Look at all you have going on. And so I say, that's the most dangerous world word in the world is someday. Someday you get to keep your dream, but you don't have to do anything about it. And I did that for years. And I had the idea for what became the mailbox, which was the first, um, kind of sunset beach romance, and had told a friend about it, and she was like, you have to write this book. And I knew nothing about Flannery O'Connor said, everybody thinks they know how to write a novel till they sit down to write one. It's so hard. And so I, like I said, I learned how to write a novel by writing that novel. And my youngest was three and three year olds. As if you guys have kids that they're, you know, they're. They don't mind themselves very well. Yeah. And I did have the older kids, but they also were not the best babysitters because they could harsh and things like that. So I would. Once I dedicated myself that I was going to do this. I would, like, feed everybody and put a movie on and lock all the doors to the house, and they were not allowed to go outside. You know, I just wouldn't make rules. And I'd be like, I'm going to go in my room and write for 30 minutes. There are only three reasons that you should come in my room. You have been fed, you know where the bathroom is, and there's a movie on tv. You can do this for 30 minutes. I would have this talk every single time. And I would say, what are the three reasons that you should come and get me? And they'd say, blood, flood or fire? I'm like, exactly. Get me until. Unless one of those three things are happening. So I'd go in my room. I'd get started. Never failed. I'd be just going, you know, you get in that groove and not, not, not. Who is it? Brad. Brad. Blood, flood or fire? Long pause. None. Go away. That's how I did it. It's not glamorous, and it probably should not be anybody's parenting advice, but that's how I did it.

Emily:

So I love it, though. I love, like, that you carve that space out for yourself.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Marybeth Whalen:

Yeah. I mean, pretty many. They. Yeah, they can watch a kid show for 30 minutes. They are fine.

Emily:

It's not like you're out of the.

Marybeth Whalen:

House, like, right down the hall or fire. The door was locked. I did lock the door because otherwise they just come zooming in.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Marybeth Whalen:

Because they closed doors. Never mattered to them. So I would lock the door, just not to keep them out, necessarily, but have. They would have to knock. They couldn't just bust in my door because that's even more disturbing. So. But I got really good at writing with interruptions, like, going out of the story back in. Out of the story back in. I can't do that anymore because they have to. And it's. I'm like, you used to be so much better than you are.

Rachel:

So I.

Emily:

But that just goes to show we use the time we have. Like, our business coach said that one, she was like, time doesn't mean anything. It's just like, if you're gonna. If you're gonna make it happen in whatever time that you have or you're not.

Rachel:

Exactly. Yeah, I taught a. I taught a workshop two weeks ago to a lovely group of writers, and what we talked about was, like, like, you can't change the practical things that are gonna interrupt you most of the time. Like, you can't change how many kids you have. Like, you can't change your kids. You can't change your job. You can't change, like, that stuff exists, so you have to figure out how to write, like, in the midst of it.

Marybeth Whalen:

Right.

Rachel:

And so our workshop ended up being a lot more, like, mindset heavy because we. We tend to shoot ourselves in the foot way more on the mindset side than we do on, like, I don't. Like, I have. I'm a caretaker, so I don't have the time, because you can write with literally any amount of time that you have if those other things aren't presenting, you know, the huge problem of, like, oh, I'm such a perfectionist. Whenever I have 30 minutes, I can't figure out how to do anything.

Marybeth Whalen:

I will. You just saying that made me remember one of the books that was hugely influential on what I just described was taking the 15, 2030 minutes that I had instead of. I used to tell myself, I can't write a book because I don't have 3 hours out in a field with fawn sprawlicking around in a waterfall. So trickling in the background. I. That's kind of. I was very precious about the whole thing. And I read a book called Pen on Fire, and it's, I'm sure you can get a copy of it if you want. I highly recommend it. Her whole thing was, all you need is 15 minutes. And I read that book, and I was like, she's right. And she would literally write in her kitchen in the middle of, you know, dinner time if, if this, you know, if the noodles were coming to a boil. And it just, it. I, it taught me, you're being way too precious about this, and you need to just get real, and how if you really want this that bad, then you will fix it.

Emily:

So that reminds me, Rachel, of the little game that you play. Micro sprints.

Rachel:

My grace. Friends, I was thinking the same thing. So in our writing community, we have a writing program that we teach craft mindset, and it's a community for our writers. And over the summer, I mean, with a, she was three then, she's four now. But, like, constant interruptions. Right? Like, her attention span is only so large, and she's an only child, so she very much wants to play with me all the time, or my husband all the time. And I was trying to finish this draft, and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to write until she interrupts me. And however long that is, great. That's however long it is.

So I started at like 07:

00 a.m. and I called them micro sprints. And I, like, posted in our community, I'm just going to write until she comes to talk to me. And when she comes, then we'll take a break, and then when she goes to do her own thing again, I'll come back. And I think I did maybe like ten or 15 throughout the day, but I wrote, like, I think I wrote 1700 words that day, and it was literally just like eight minutes at a time. I was like, how much can I do for eight minutes? And then she'd come and I'd be like, okay, we're stopping. And I posted it all in this thread in our community. And since then, we now have, like, adopted this practice of, like, I'm gonna do some micro sprints today. Let's see how much can happen. It was like, super low pressure. Just like, how much can I do before I get interrupted? It worked really well.

Marybeth Whalen:

I mean, yeah, you, you can come up with stuff and you can get it done. And I, like I said, I was a little too precious about it back in the day. In fact, even listening to y'all talk. I'm, I've gotten a little too precious about it again. I need to fix some stuff about myself. Yeah, yeah.

Rachel:

Go do some micro sprints.

Marybeth Whalen:

That three year old is now, she just left for college, so.

Emily:

Oh, my God. Big moments.

Marybeth Whalen:

They say it goes so fast. They're, they're not lying. The old ladies in the grocery store, they're not lying. It does go so fast. So. Yeah, yeah, I know. Bad news, but true. So, yeah, so I am, I have an empty, empty house most days. My husband's working, and then I am back to the, like, oh, well, I'm not going to have 3 hours, so I just won't write today. You know, that's ridiculous.

Rachel:

It is funny, though, how, like, our process adapts to, like, our phase of life or our season, whatever we're in, because what worked for you back then shifted. And now maybe you have to shift a little bit back and, like, refine some of that urgency or the ability to write in those short periods of time. It changes. It changes with wherever else we're going, whatever else is happening in our lives.

Emily:

For sure.

Marybeth Whalen:

Yeah.

Rachel:

Yeah. Well, as we get to kind of the end of our time together, I did want to ask you, I know also you are the part of the host of the booktide or a founder of the booktide, so could you tell us a little bit about that? The book tied, why do, what's it do for readers?

Marybeth Whalen:

I run that with Ariel Lahan, my friend. And we actually, years and years ago, started a site called she reads that ended up going, oh, my gosh, no, it's not the same. She reads. The one we started preceded that one. That one has come in since we stopped ours, but a lot of people think it's the same. That's not us any, but. So we have, we did. She reads and then we took, we both were writing, you know, a book a year. We had. She has four kids, I have six. We were kind of in the throes of just chaos. And so we took a break and did nothing. And January of this year, we came back with the book tied. And our tagline is a rising tide raises all books. And we just want to really share books and share authors. I mean, both of us, like I said, have written, I don't even know how many she's written, six, seven, something like that. I mean, and I've written ten now. So we've, we've met a lot of writers along the way, and we just want to promote our friends and, and new friends and just reading in books. And at the, like I said, in the beginning, we were both readers. And the way we started she reads was we noticed that people would come over to our house and we would press books into their hands. They would leave. We ran kind of our own lending library, and we said, well, what if we, and they would come back and say, that was so good. Give me something else. And so we said, well, we said, what if we just did that online? And that's kind of how she reads came to be. And so we're not necessarily doing the same thing this time with that. Like, we're not going to choose a book a month. We sort of started out that way just because that's what we knew, but really more just creating, you know, that community around reading, kind of what you guys are doing with, with writers and just sharing books. I will say we've took the summer, accidentally took the summer off, but we are coming back strong in the fall.

Emily:

Love that.

Marybeth Whalen:

Yeah. So we're kind of learning as we go, but we figured, you know, done is better than perfect and let's just at least get it off the ground and, and see what comes of it. We've done some, some podcasts with authors and we may bring that back. We're just kind of learning as we go. But it is a, it is a fun thing to do with your friends and you guys can probably testify to that if you're friends and you share a love like this and to just kind of make it more official and do something together like that. So we had missed doing that with she read. So that's, that's what we're doing now. Yeah. Stay tuned. It's the booktide.com. and come follow us. We've got a sub stack, we've got content coming up and we are excited to share it and, and just stay tuned and see what happens. We don't really know yet everything we're going to be up to, but we are.

Emily:

I love that. I love the openness.

Marybeth Whalen:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. I'm not, not one for making things up if they're not true. I only make things up and that aren't true in fiction.

Rachel:

In fiction. Exactly. I'm like, I think my job is making things up.

Marybeth Whalen:

Do enough of that for my job.

Rachel:

Also, we're going to put a link to the book tied in our show notes and every moment since comes out tomorrow. The podcast will come out later this week. So everybody, by the time you're listening, it's out. Where should they go?

Marybeth Whalen:

Find it well, all the links to purchase it are at my website, marybethwayland.com. and then, of course, anywhere you buy books, it should be there. Barnes and Noble, Target, Amazon, all the indies. And I'm a big indie lover. I'm doing a tour. I think I'm going 17 different stores in the next six weeks. So if you want to look at my events and come see me, I'd love that. And come. Yeah, patronize the indies because they're. They're the champions of the book world, so.

Emily:

Yeah, we love that. Well, congratulations on everyone. Sounds like it was a big project for you. This is a big moment, so I hope you really take time to soak it in. That's amazing.

Marybeth Whalen:

It's surreal to be here, you know, just all this time and here we are and it's like. It's like your wedding day. You're like, okay.

Emily:

It's really.

Marybeth Whalen:

Yeah. So very excited. But thank you all for having me.

Rachel:

Oh, you're so welcome. We'll put links to everything in the show notes. Go. Also get on Mary Beth's newsletter too, so you can stay up to date with everything she's up to. And thank you again for joining us. This is an awesome conversation and we so appreciate your time.

Marybeth Whalen:

Oh, thank you. It was fun.

Emily:

If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.

Rachel:

Sign up now to get our free email course. The magic of character arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.

Emily:

Link in the show notes. We'll see you there.