Story Magic

70 - Character arcs across a series with Jennifer Armentrout

August 15, 2024 • Golden May

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Today, Emily & Rachel talk about developing arcs across a series with very special guest Jennifer Armentrout.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

  • Planning flaws and change across multiple books
  • Meeting reader expectations
  • Developing characters through exploration
  • Building romance and intimacy across multiple books


Read BORN OF BLOOD AND ASH, out now: https://jenniferlarmentrout.com/books/born-of-blood-and-ash/

JENNIFER's WEBSITE: https://jenniferlarmentrout.com/


Ready to make readers so in love with your characters they can’t stop biting their nails in anticipation?  Grab The Magic of Character Arcs free email course: https://www.goldenmayediting.com/arcsmagic


Join Tenacious Writing! With the perfect combo of craft, mindset, and community resources, you will build a writing life that feels sustainable, fulfilling, and fun—without any prescriptions or rules. Learn more: https://www.tenaciouswriting.com/


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Join us on October 5th and 6th for Character Development Decoded! In this two-day LIVE virtual workshop, we'll teach you how to develop your character's life before page one and then teach you how to show it your story (without flashbacks!). Breathe life into your characters and bring their humanity to the page. All you have to do is register at https://goldenmayediting.com/character! See you there!

Emily:

Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.

Rachel:

I'm Rachel.

Emily:

And I'm Emily.

Rachel:

And today we are talking with a very special guest, Jennifer Armentraut. We are so excited to have you today. Jennifer, welcome to Story of magic. Before we jump in, I'm going to read a little bio about you and then we can talk about our topic today. Jennifer Armentrad is a number one New York Times and number one international bestselling author of fantasy, contemporary romance, young adult, paranormal, and science fiction. Jennifer has won numerous awards, including the 2020 Goodreads Choice Award in romance for her adult fantasy from Blood and Ash. She has also written adult, a new adult contemporary and paranormal romance under the name Jaylin. Jennifer lives in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. When she's not hard at work writing, she spends her time reading, watching really bad zombie movies, pretending to write, hanging out with her husband and her boardie, crawly, Artemis. Yay. Thank you so much, Jennifer, for coming on. We are so excited to talk today. We are going to be talking about character arcs across series, which is something you're familiar with. You've written a lot of series.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Thank you guys so much for having me here. I'm super excited to talk about character arcs across different series.

Emily:

Well, welcome. So first, before we talk about character arcs, I just have a question. You have written in so many genres. Like, Rachel was reading that and there was just comma after comma after comma, can you tell us a little bit about what has that been like? Did you know that you were going to write multiple genres when you started writing? How did you get into the different genres? I just want know all the things.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah, I so, like, when I first started writing and, you know, it really wasn't that long ago, but I mean, it was, I think we're going on about 14 or 15 years now, and 15 years in publishing is a very, very long time. So back when I first started, it wasn't really common to see authors jump between genres. Pretty much like you were with a publisher, and if you wrote paranormal, that's. You were a paranormal author. If you were contemporary, you were a contemporary author. But, like, and so I started writing young adult paranormal. That's where I started off at. And however, like, I also at that time was mostly reading adult stuff. Like, I would go back and forth. So when I would write young adult, I would read adult and vice versa and in a complete different genre. But I realized, like, after, gosh, I think I wrote the Covenant series and the Lux series. And I think the next one I wrote was the Gambler Brothers. So that was a contemporary. And I just, what I learned was I liked the break between jumping genres. Like, it actually was almost like a palette cleanser, especially if I was writing, like, a couple books into a series. Like, as you know, that gets harder at that point because it's, you know, first book in a series is so much fun. You know, you. But then once you're two, three, four books in, you're like, I gotta remember all this shit now. I don't know what I think. Three books ago. Yes. It's like jumping into a contemporary where it is less world building. There is, in a way, less plot. Like, you know what I mean? This, you know, you have your own different types of stakes. You don't have to have these big, like, massive stakes that you do in paranormal and fantasy. So I realized I like that as a break is almost like, kind of resetting and not having to, like, be so deep into creating something, you know, as world and everything.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

Did you, did you find any challenges on, like, the business side of things and crashing genre? We have writers that are self published and traditionally published in our audience. And it's tricky to cross that barrier, especially back then.

Jennifer Armentrout:

So not only did you have authors that really didn't often. I mean, there were authors, especially in romance, you would see authors writing different romance genres. But one thing that I learned pretty quickly is because I was in young adult, they wanted me to have a pen name because they were, I guess, concerned that, you know, teenagers would find themselves in the adult section, which I have learned, like, teenage teens know people. They know when they're ready to read something, when they're not. Like, after doing so many events and meeting young readers like you, you can tell when they're ready to read something more mature and when they're not and they won't read it or they will skim over certain parts. So. But I, back then, they really wanted you to have a pen name. And so I would then use at that point, Jay Lynn because it's just my name in middle name. And so that became a little bit difficult because also it was really dumb because when they did that, they put ginormous letters on the book cover and there might be one that I have behind me, but, like, where it says Jennifer L. Armentura and, like, ginormous letters on the book cover and then small letters writing as Jay Lynn.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Why are we doing that? What? But also, things were so different back then. The bookstores were different, and that's before Waterstones took over Barnes and Noble, and so they had a totally different buying process. So it was definitely more difficult. But then, I think, again, starting then, self publishing and small presses were not as accepted as they were even two years after that. But as that started to rise, and I think publishers realized that you can write what you want to write. So they moved away from where it seems like they were more focused on what the genre the author is writing in and moved more towards being invested in. The author, not so much the genre. You know, it took them a while to do that, and, I mean, I can't even say all of them to have gotten to that point, but, like, yeah, so it was difficult then, not so much now. I don't think it's really a thing now.

Rachel:

Yeah, it sounds like there's a little bit more flexibility, and the industry is changing. The industry is becoming more flexible to meet a writer, a wider reader base. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Emily:

So I'm so curious in that you write in so many different genres and you've written so many books. Do you work on multiple projects at once, or do you, do you have to go back and forth?

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah, no, I know some authors who will write one book in the morning and then work on another book in the afternoon, and I'm like, how do you do that? That would be so confused because it takes me, I mean, back, it used to not as I gotten older, it takes me longer to find the rhythm of writing every single day. And I feel like by the time I would get into the rhythm, I would have to be stopping and starting something else. So, no, I only work on one book at a time. And, I mean, I just. I could not, because I would see that, for me, personally, if I did that, it's because I was procrastinating.

Rachel:

Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah. And usually that's a sign for me that there's something wrong with the book I'm writing. If I now overhear the shiny new idea or the different, you know, book, there's usually, for me, it's a sign that there's something wrong with the book I'm working, that I'm not interested.

Rachel:

Yeah, that is so fun to. I would love to dive in there. I mean, we have so much to talk about, but we've done episodes on. Episodes on. Of procrastination before, because it usually is. Is an indicator of a problem, whether it's mindset or story, and it's not just like an indicator of laziness.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes, I think it takes experience for you to realize that shiny new idea is usually like a death trap, because then another shiny new idea comes along, and it took me a while to even realize that. Don't fall for that trap.

Rachel:

Yeah. It's also pretty nice to know that even seasoned writers who have been in the industry for a long time still experience problems with your story and, like, the occasional writer's block or procrastination or things that you notice are going wrong that you then have to adapt to.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah. That. That never goes away. I don't know if that's reassuring or not for people.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jennifer Armentrout:

So you think it's like, oh, if I do this for five years or ten years, that stuff stops? No, it does not.

Emily:

Okay, one last process question, and then I'll let us go to the topic.

Jennifer Armentrout:

In our.

Emily:

So, in our writing community and, like, in our audience, we talk a lot about how every writer is very, very different and how they show up to the page, and so we've encouraged folks to come up with the process that really works for them. So I'm curious, like, are you a plotter, a pantser? Does it differ per book? Like, what's your process when you have a new project?

Jennifer Armentrout:

So I used to always say that I was a pantser, but in reality, I'm a little bit of both. Like, I am 70% pantserhead and 30% plotter. Like I said, when I write, like, I usually know, like, the beginning, the middle, and the end. But typically, once I get to the middle, or, like, what I like to call the mid book crisis point where you everything. But also, I know once I get to the middle, it's like, or towards the end of the middle part, the second half. Like, I know I need to get myself together at that point because you can't go off the rails in the third act. So that's where I will start doing, usually outline chapters at that point just to remind myself, okay, this is what I need to cover, and this is how many chapters it's going to take. But, yeah, so I think I'm more of a mixture of both, but takes about getting to the middle of the book for me to have that.

Rachel:

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And Emily and I are on opposite sides of the spectrum, but I think we drift, you know, here and there. But it's, like, so reassuring for me to hear that that's your process, because I don't think you need to be a die hard plotter in order to write series that have successful arcs. I think your series do manage that. So how do you normally, like, approach planning an arc across a four book, five book series?

Jennifer Armentrout:

So I think for me, and this is going to sound like this is going to sound like I'm simplifying it, like, too much. To me. It's like you just have to know the arc. Like, you have to know, not like you have to know, like, obviously, how the books themselves start in, but know, where do you see this series ending? How do you see it ending? And here's the thing. You don't have to know that, like, when you, you write the first book or process now, it also depends on how many books you're going to have. If it's going to be three books, you should probably know that by the end of that first book or hopefully the beginning of the second. Yeah, but sometimes you realize at that point that this isn't going to be three books, it's going to be four. So I think to me, it's like I approach the overall arc like I do a book, like I have to know. And usually I will know roughly around, like, the second book. If it's a three to four book and if it's longer than that, then usually it's the third book and then also giving yourself, like, room to change that. Yeah, and, like, smaller arcs. Like, you don't have to be married to that thing that you thought of a year ago or however long ago, like, because if you're like me, sometimes when you start telling a story, the story starts taking on a little bit of a life of its own, which can change how certain things happen.

Rachel:

Yeah, that makes sense. Do you find that you're thinking of each arc as its own individual thing in each book and then you're also projecting long term. This is how I can tie them together.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah. I think that's what works for me is just knowing that in game. Right. But there's been times, like, where I won't know something and I'll be writing and then it comes together and it looks like I always plan that and I did not remotely plan that. And I'm just like Rachel's life. Yeah. I was like, oh, yeah. And then sometimes we're just like, oh, my God, look at, look at all the foreshadowing. I'm like, yes, look at that foreshadow. But the thing is, sometimes when you're writing, you don't realize that you're actually doing it because I think we also sometimes get stuck in that. I need to know everything. I need to know all the details. And then you, you spin your wheels trying to figure stuff out, and a lot of times you, you're actually laying the groundwork for something and, you know, and it's there. You just, you know, haven't fully realized that yet until you keep writing forward.

Rachel:

Yeah, it sounds like you have a large amount of self trust where you are. Like, I'm going to figure this out. Even if I don't know it, the blanks will fill themselves in. We're going to get the answers that we need.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah, for the most part, yes. I mean, there's been times where I've been, like, you know, unsure. Like, where I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, you know, have I written myself into a corner here? But, yeah, you do have to have trust in yourself. And I do think that's something that does come with experience and, and it's like I always tell, like, newer writers, it's like, don't feel like you're not doing something right if you don't have that trust in yourself. I feel like it does take a lot of books to really get that trust because just because you've been able to figure it out ten times doesn't mean you're gonna figure it out the 11th time. And it's okay to start over at that point because sometimes you do have to do that. You, at least on the book that you're writing, you have to step back from it and, you know, try to figure it out.

Rachel:

Yeah. Do you find, like, with arcs and in general, with arcs specifically? Not arcs in general? With arcs specifically in these longer book series that you're planning, are you thinking ahead of time? Like, oh, Poppy's gonna change in this way. I want her to start as this character. I want her to end in this character. And here are the places where she's gonna have or undergo growth, or are you just kind of, like, in your head as you're writing, you start a new scene and you're like, poppy needs to undergo growth. What's it gonna be?

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah, you know, I don't think I, I approach it on, like, that micro level of knowing that, you know, like, what's the growth going to be? But I know that, like, this is how she starts and this is where I want her to be at the end. And so knowing that, as I write, like, it kind of comes organically at that point. And then I think of the books. Right. So you look at the Blood Nash series, like, there were a lot of things that I thought were going to happen in a kingdom of flesh and fire. But as I started writing a kingdom, I realized that I didn't have poppy or cast where they needed to be for certain things to happen, for growth, for both of them. So that is when I started to realize, okay, like, I'm not going to be able to get them to where they need to be, both in terms of growth, even their physical location in the book. Like, there are things I realized that, I mean, even right now, I'm writing primal of blood and bone, and I had, like, a beginning one way, and then I was like, okay, wait a minute. And then, God knows, I. And I do this where I will, and my editor, like, always tells me this happens, and it does. I will write sometimes eight to ten different beginnings of a book, like, where. And, you know, all that will mostly have almost the same stuff in it with certain deviations, or I'll take certain things out, whatever. And then almost always, I go back to what I originally wrote the first time.

Rachel:

Really?

Jennifer Armentrout:

It's such a freaking time waster.

Emily:

That's so interesting.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah.

Emily:

So do you. Are you an act one rewriter, or do you wait till the draft is done and then you write a bunch of them?

Jennifer Armentrout:

No, I do it. So for me, now, when I first started writing, I wrote to the end, right? Because somebody once said to me, it's a funny advice, and the best advice, they were like, you can't. I think it was actually Nora Roberts said it, like. And she didn't say it directly to me about, like, you can't edit a blank page. Yeah, it's a blank page. And so in your first draft is shit. It's supposed to be like. And so when I was first writing, I did that, but as I wrote more and more books, that has changed for me. So when I know there's a problem, I can't move forward until I fix that problem. But I also will spin my heels a little bit with it. And sometimes it does take, like, eight different versions of me realizing that, yeah, I was right the first time around, like, or that first time just needed teeny, tiny tweaks made to it. But I do focus a lot on the first act, and mainly because I think it's just drilled into my head, like, you have to keep them in that first half, right? Like, if they lose interest in that first half, you're not going to even get them to the. The middle part where you have to worry about, like, the mid book slump thing. So I do focus heavily on that.

Rachel:

Yeah. What do you think is like, I'm sure a lot of it is the gut feeling now that you've built up over time and practice and trial and error of this. But when you're trying out all those eight versions, they don't feel right. But then you get back and you finally take a look at version one again, and you're like, that feels right. Like, what's, what's that feeling? What makes it right?

Jennifer Armentrout:

You know, I think. I think it's just a realization that I was, like, second guessing myself. And I think it's because what I'll do is I'll do all these other different versions and then realize, like, none of them work. This one actually did work, but some part of that first version needed to be tweaked. And it's just really kind of realizing, hey, what part did I need to pull out? And it's always, like, the simplest thing, you know, this is going to be. This isn't a spoiler, but as you know, like, I feel like when you write series that have romance in them, you have to keep that romance, you know, alive, right. Because it's not going to be as exciting as it is before they get together. So I always approach it as, you know, it's the first kiss again, the first. More than a kiss, the first sex scene. And in that book, I was. I had originally having, like, they would have sex pretty quickly, but then I was like, no, I don't want that. Because, you know, that's. I feel like one of the way to keep the interest in that from readers is to, to draw that on a little bit. And so I came up, like, with this really super, unnecessarily complicated reason that took me literally, like, a month and a half of doing this before I realized, oh, the simplest reason is right there. Like, you know, why that wouldn't happen right now? And it's. You feel kind of dumb once you realize it. Like, yeah, why didn't I just have it? Like, you know, so. But also, you have that problem, too, with that is when you're that many books into the series, you got to do the recap. That not really. That doesn't come across as a recap, but, yeah, like, you have to ground the characters, right? It's like you got to catch the readers up, but you also have to catch the characters up. And in reality, you're catching yourself up, too. At least for me, having written, you know, the other series, I had to kind of find that voice again, I guess. And, like, you know, sometimes that could be why I. I tend to do that. Jumping back and forth.

Rachel:

Yeah, no, that makes sense. How do you typically use, like, in romance? I think this is common or it should be common. I think it's the goal that scenes of intimacy. Intimacy scenes also push character forward. Right. Like, we're challenging our character to remain in their flaws or to change forward in their flaws. Do you have any tips or thoughts that you go through when you're planning or when you're approaching a moment where you're like, okay, are they going to have sex or is it not going to be sex? What are we going to do and how are we going to use it? Like, what are you typically working through in your head as you approach those scenes?

Jennifer Armentrout:

So, like, when I approach the scenes, I always approach them like, okay, does this make sense right now for the characters and for the plot? Does this make sense that this would be happening? I feel like whenever you would read, like, the best example I can give is, like, when you read, like. Like, contemporary suspense and, like, the people are on the run, there's killers after them, people are dropping dead all around them, but you have time to just, like, stop and have sex. I'm confused.

Rachel:

Yeah, right.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Like, I don't think this is an appropriate time. However, it's. That can still work when it is something you could picture the character doing. Like Cass, for example. He would make time in the most inconvenient, like, what are you doing? Situation. Like, it almost becomes like a running thing or theme with him. But, like, for, like, the characters, like, with poppy, it's like it had to make sense. Like, what. Especially in the earlier books, like, what would she be comfortable with? And, you know, how resistant to the idea of getting into a relationship with she bee. So I think for me, it's, it's, again, it comes down to, like, the story as you're writing. It kind of tells you when because. And also, it is okay to have, you know, once you've established whatever their. Their relationship or whatever is going to be. Yeah. You can have just plain old sex scenes that really just don't move the plot forward. Um, but maybe are giving or showing something that, you know, or maybe moves those characters relationship forward, which isn't so much the overall plot. But I do think, especially in the beginning, it's important to look at where you're at in the story. Does it make sense? Because, you know, adding sex just to add sex can work for some readers. Right. But you also kind of have to know what genre you're writing because if you're, you know, that sounds more when you get into like, erotica territory where it, you know, where that is, the plot. But, you know, if you are appealing to, for example, fantasy readers, they're, they're going to pay attention to that pacing a lot and, you know, be more, you know, they're going to look more closely at that, like, why are they doing this right now kind of thing.

Rachel:

Yeah. Romantic is like such an interesting combination of these two things because you do really have romance and plot becoming, hand in hand, the most important things. And that can still be a tricky balance because, like you said, you go too far and you're leaning into erotic romance, but you don't go far enough and maybe you're not hitting some reader expectations or you're not keeping people engaged enough in the romance.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah. And it's so hard. So, like, for example, so if you are a romance author, like, for me, at the end of the day, first and foremost, I'm a romance author, but my books were never like, as most romance books, they're not just romance. There's always a secondary plot that often will be as prevalent as that romance unless the book is truly about a relationship between people. So if you write paranormal romance, um, they used to call it urban fantasy. I don't even know what they call it now. So I'm just going to call it contemporary fantasy.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah. Like, you, you're, you always have a secondary plot that is right neck and neck with the romance. So for, for, so if you have a romance background, it's not going to be that hard for you. Um, but reader expectation, that's impossible because you never know what their idea of steam is. Right? Like, I've seen people say a book is so steamy, but I've like, read that book. I'm like, honey, let me introduce you to a dark romance or some of the stuff over here. So you just, you just, you, you can't, like, I don't think you can do that because it, like when you see like the little, like the little steam levels or like the little, like some peppers. Peppers? Yeah. Yeah. It's, sometimes I see it, like, really steamy for like, books that I'm like, oh, really? Like, it's so subjective. Like we're supposed to like, close door off the page.

Emily:

Yeah.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Or you see like something where it's like, you know, a lot of holes were being filled in that scene and someone has it like three chili's. You're like, really, what have you been doing? What do you read? So you just you can't, like, yeah, I feel like you just, you write to what your expectation is in that sense, because I don't think you're ever going to meet every expectation there.

Emily:

I love that advice because I think Spice is one of those things that it's, you can try to look for reader expectation by reading similar comp titles, maybe, but you're still never going to be able to hit exactly the right level that everybody wants because it's not possible.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Vastly different, right? Yeah. Will have the issue where you will have some readers who like the spicier stuff, some who don't, and. But they still, like, both still like that book as much as each other. It's just they're focusing on different things. So it's, you know. Yeah. So I feel like that's the area where it's like you kind of have to write what you want to write and then they'll figure that out, you know, kind of.

Emily:

Yeah, yeah, I love that. So on the other end of the romance conversation, I feel like we've, there's obviously physical attraction is a big part of writing romance, but you also need to have that character intimacy right, between different, like, who are the people who are falling in love? Why are they falling in love? Why are they made for each other? And I think that ties into the character question, too. Right. Because they're pushing each other along their arcs of change. How did you plan that kind of a thing? Do your characters kind of emerge as whole people that you're following them through that journey together? Like, what's your approach to figuring out how to put why somebody loves somebody else on the page?

Jennifer Armentrout:

I feel like, you know, like, I start off knowing those characters, right? And I don't start off knowing everything about them, but I start off knowing, you know, a decent amount. And then, like, I feel like, again, it's like one of those things where as you're writing, you start showing how they fall in love. It is something that I do think of as I'm writing because, and I think the reason being is coming from, like, a young adult background back in the day where you really, like, that was, I feel like, paid a lot more attention to than an adult romance, more so. So I always knew back in my head, it's like you have to show that them falling and you have to show that. So it can't just go from, you know, them meeting to, you know, like, for example, I love my banter. I love the enemies to lovers trope is, like, one of my favorite. But you have to still show, like, where they actually do like each other at some point. Like, because, you know, because in real life, I feel like it, whether you're dealing with, like, gods, aliens, real people, vampires, whatever, if you really hate someone that much, that ain't gonna happen. Like, you know, that reluctant attraction, but also that, like, reluctant respect of someone. Like, where you see that. Where the person see their. Their. That starting to change. So I do look for certain beats in that, like, you know, where they need. Where they, you can see them starting to change the way they view one another and. But I think it's something that isn't always a conscious effort when you're writing. But if it's not something I think if you've ever thought about, then maybe it's already on the page. And if you like, I feel like if someone struggles with that, it might be something to think about. Like, okay, when was the moment that they fell in love? Can you answer that about your own characters? And if you can't, then the reader will not be able to. So I think approaching it that way helps.

Rachel:

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great. Like, you need to be able to articulate this or the more you write, this is what you're looking for. Our definitely, like, our approach to writing is this similar where you don't know everything, but that's what revisions are for. Like, none. Nobody expects this to happen in your first draft. So, listeners, this is something that you can do over time and continually refine because it's nothing, especially if it's your first time doing it. It's not easy. This is not, like, a super easy thing. Yeah.

Jennifer Armentrout:

And everybody has their own different first strats. Like, some people's first drafts are, like, it's. That's the book. Like, in terms of, it's fully fleshed out. It's still going to probably need revisions and edits and all that. But then, like, one of my other author friends, like, her first draft is literally just dialogue and a little bit of scene. It's like almost reading a screenplay. And if you've ever read a screen treatment of something, it literally is just dialogue and random for no reason whatsoever. Like a description of what's happening in that scene, which always makes me laugh whenever the random description comes in because I'm like, why did you take time to write that out? But that's. And my friend, like, she. That's all it is. And then once she does edits, she goes back in, and now she's worked the same editor for many, like, if she turned that into a new editor like that. Yeah. It would have been like, what editor knows that that's her process, and then she fleshes it out as she goes back through and it works for her. I could not do that at all. So it's like, you find the way that works for you and that's how you do it. Me? Nope.

Rachel:

I feel like that would work for Rachel.

Emily:

That would work for you.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Meanwhile, for me, I would feel like my characters were in a black hole the whole time.

Emily:

Yeah, same. I would be like, I can't see anything.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah. I would be able to do it.

Emily:

Yeah.

Rachel:

I love it. I think. So I write, why choose which is multiple partners for one girl, which is fantastic. But so much of how I get to know those characters is in their dialogue as they speak to one another and as they are mean and sassy and funny and quiet and soften. So how do you typically get to know your characters? You were saying earlier that you start knowing part of who they are. Do you go through a prep period to get to know their flaws or exploration.

Jennifer Armentrout:

With the main characters? Let's say blood and ass series, super Main. And I'm just going to whittle it down to three of them. So it's going to be like, poppy, Cass, Karen, like, they I know more about before I start writing, and then. But even for them, it becomes, like learning as I go, like, where certain things about the past come out as I'm writing. And it wasn't something I necessarily thought of when I started the series, but then I'm like, like, I don't think. I mean, this is not a big spoiler, but, like, with Kieran, like, when I first started writing, I didn't know that he had someone in the past that he loved, that he knew, whatever, that just. I was just writing the scene and then I was like, oh, okay. And I think sometimes these things come out when you. When you're actually writing the scene and you're actually making them into a real person in a way, like giving them the background, giving them the past. I do think certain qualities are important if their actions are based on their past. So if they're doing certain things, like with Cass, I had to know his past, and so that was a little bit different where I had to know a lot more about him than I feel like I even had to know about Poppy because his past guided his present actions at that time. So I feel like it has a lot to do with motivation of the characters that you would have to know. To determine how much you want to get in depth before you start writing.

Rachel:

Yeah. So you spent time throughout the process, probably not all of this time right before you started, but you're thinking about backstory and their goals, their motivations and their conflict. Pretty standard. Like, what is at stake for them? What are they fighting against? What are they fighting for? Yeah.

Jennifer Armentrout:

You know, I spent probably more time building the world than I did the characters. I came up with the idea for blood and Ash in 2016. I was watching the Summer Olympics. The series has absolutely nothing to do it. I cannot even tell you why that is expired. Only. Only loose correlation is greek mythology. And I'm very heavily inspired by greek mythology, but I had, at that time, had never wrote a high fantasy. Like, I was very intimidated by it. I had friends who wrote it, and I read their stuff, and I was always like, I don't write like that because a lot of fantasies. And now I will say once I started writing, I do write differently when I'm writing fantasy than I do paranormal, but I was very intimidated by the idea of doing it, and I had performance anxiety. I was like, I don't know if I can pull this off, because when you're writing contemporary, anything rooted in our world, you don't have to set that world right. If you, for example, say. If you just say a skyscraper, most people know what that looks like. But when you go into fantasy, you're. You're throwing some crazy shit in there that you then have to explain to people, but you have to do it in a way that it's not you explaining it to people. Yeah, you have to give it a set it. And so it was very intimidating. So it took me three years to build that world, and I never in my life spent that amount of time on any book, not even my first book, and I would just kind of tinker with it in between books. So I spent more time building that world than I probably did any of the characters. And I feel like the characters were easier for me than the world because the original idea for that world is similar to what it is now. But I could write that idea and there would be enough differences that it would be the same book. So it took me a while for that. So that's where I spent most of my time on.

Rachel:

Yeah, that makes sense. But I don't, as a reader, I wouldn't have guessed that you had, like, they fit so seamlessly together, is my point. It doesn't feel like you spent a lot of time on the world in a very good way. It's so well developed, but it doesn't feel like, you know, the characters just kind of fit in afterwards. It felt like they were together.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah. I'm glad to hear that. Normally, I come up with the characters first. Always, it's the characters that come to me first and then the world. Now I will say, like, pop. I will say that, like, I, Poppy, Cass, like, I did know them and Karen at that time. Right. They didn't have names yet. Poppy was the only one who had a name, and I knew how they felt fit, but they weren't fully developed at that point. Like, they were kind. I knew certain things about them, but when the world itself changed, their roles changed a little bit. And so, yeah, so it was interesting to do it that way, because, again, I normally do not approach any book I write that way. It's usually the characters. And then by learning the characters, you almost develop whatever book you're writing by learning the characters. So for me, at least, it was a very weird way for me to do it.

Rachel:

Yeah. So you have book coming out tomorrow. We have born of blood and Ash, which is the fourth in the series, the final installment. How does it feel to, like, wrap up, wrap up a series like this? Wrap up arcs, wrap up everything into this final book? Is it like, everything fit together, or is it like. I've tried to put all these puzzle pieces and I don't know what it looks like.

Jennifer Armentrout:

So normally, if this was a normal book, in a normal series, it would feel sweet, right? It would feel like a relief that I did it. I hope it makes sense. I think it does. But this is a different thing because someone thought this was a good idea to allow me to do so. Like, the flesh and Fire series is a prequel to the Blood and Ash series that the idea I came up with when I was writing a kingdom and the crown of gilded bones, the second and third book and blood and Ash, because I always knew that a lot of that society, their gods, everything wasn't necessarily true. And I was getting to the point in that series where I knew that I was going to have to tell what? The truth. But then as I started telling the story, and I think there, you know, there is definitely a scene in the crowd, the crown of gilded bones, and I think it's Kieran, where you get a very generic, watered down, kind of barely there recap, because I knew at that point that I was like, I'm sure changing that history by just doing this. Almost like, I don't want to say info dumb but that's how I would call it a, this little history lesson and that's how I developed the Flesh and Fire series. The difference is, is those timelines meet eventually and that is where the final book in that series comes into play where you will. So while I'm finishing that series, some of those characters I don't, I'm not saying goodbye to yet because they are now meeting in the current timeline of the Banach world. So it was that.

I do not recommend 00:

10 it was because it's, it's, it's hard because not only like you have to make sure that has a satisfying ending in closure, right? Because there are going to be people who are going to read that series and are just not going to read blood and Ash and vice versa. Those two books should complement one another, but since they are two different series, they both should not be necessary for the other series. So it has to have its own standalone arc, but it has to lay the groundwork for the next book in the Blen Ash series. So it was, that book took me longer than any book I've ever written and now fantasy always takes me longer. A contemporary or paranormal book I can write sometimes month, two months.

Rachel:

Wow.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Three months is pushing it. And then with fantasy it's like four months, six months.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Like, and this book took me, I want to say I think it was like seven or eight months, which for me was a long time. And because I had literally two worlds and two plots, I had to always keep in the back of my mind to make sure certain things are answered and then keeping in mind that this, that happened here is going to come up again over here. And so it was, it was, it's interesting to do, but, um, again, would not recommend.

Emily:

I can't even, I can't even comprehend it, the amount of brain work that, that would take. I'm like trying to write my sequel and I'm like, oh, I've already put myself in corners with book one, but you've got multiple time versus.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah. And I do think for me it was a little bit easier because I knew there were certain things I couldn't do because I was writing in the past. But, but yeah, it's hard. I feel like it's hard if you do sequels or if you do a prequel. It's, but I do feel like, you know, it's like, I always feel like you almost always do a prequel after you've done the first book. It's so like, why do our brains work that way? Um, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot to, it broke my brain multiple times. Um, it is also the longest book I've written. Um, it is over 300,000 words.

Rachel:

Wow.

Jennifer Armentrout:

The publisher about probably had when they heard that, because that's when they started. Like, you know, you, when you do this for a long time, and even if you're not doing this for a long time, I always tell authors, you need to learn how a book is made. And I know they're stupid, but, like, there are things that you don't think about, which is paper costs money. And that, and only certain, certain formats can only have so many pages. So only certain page length can go into trade paperback or oversized trade or mass market in hardcover. Hardcover, obviously, can get more in, but that requires a special glue, I learned where they have to special glue on the binding for that. So all that, you know, those things like, that readers don't ever have to think about. And maybe as an author you never will. But I think it's smart to know that stuff to understand, like, why things are priced the way they are, why a royalty structure may be the way it is. You know, it's, you have to kind of know those certain things, like, that can change how a book is published or even when it can be published, because, you know, everything, as you know, is on a schedule. And then all suddenly they're trying to drop a 300,000 word book into a printer. That's going to be like, lol, no, not going to happen today.

Rachel:

Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense. And I also think it impacts a writer's, like, why there are word caps. You know, when you go into traditional, why there are expectations of like, oh, we don't go above 120. And it's not just like, only story purposes. It's also the cost of making the book changes a lot. Those higher words that you get into.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Yeah. And, you know, and with trad publishing, like, obviously, if you're in a fantasy genre, they're going to be used to the, you know, the longer than normal word counts. But when you start getting up in there and those crazy numbers, they're going to be a lot more lenient if you have like, a history of proving that, okay, we're still gonna sell these books. We're not like, just shooting ourselves in the foot by publishing something that's gonna be this big and cost as much. But, yeah, I'm sure they weren't utterly thrilled still at the, it's like, you know, where they got that. So, I mean, but yes, but I didn't want to write a 300,000 word, but it was like to get those characters and the plot where. Because I felt like everything I tried to remove, I was short changing something.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jennifer Armentrout:

And I feel like when it's a last book where they are the main characters, you don't want to do that to the readers, like where they're going to want to see certain scenes and that you knew you would have. So. Yeah. So that's how it ended up to that. That Len.

Rachel:

Yeah, that makes sense. But I think of anyone who has proven that they can sell that book, it is you with how much everything has just, I feel like, exploded. And in the last couple years, I think that's incredible. So congratulations. What an exciting release. And I know these two series are so beloved in my circle and I know just amongst readers as a whole, people are excited for this to come out.

Jennifer Armentrout:

That is always. I'm always happy to hear that all you can, hopefully for really.

Rachel:

Well, this has been so awesome. We are going to put the link to the book in our show notes so everybody can go grab it, catch up on all the series, catch up on the regular main timeline and our prequel series here so you can read both. I need to jump into the prequel. I've been waiting for it to be.

Jennifer Armentrout:

It's going to be a lot easier now to do that.

Rachel:

Exactly. Yeah. Because it was, it was hard to wait. It was hard to wait for the others. So I'm waiting for it to be completed now, which is wonderful. But we are so happy that you joined us. Jennifer, this is. This is incredible. Thank you so much.

Jennifer Armentrout:

Thank you so much for having me.

Rachel:

If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.

Emily:

Sign up now to get our free email course. The magic of character arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.

Rachel:

Link in the show notes. We'll see you there. Bye.