Story Magic

71 - Publishing's changing landscape with Nicole Meier

August 22, 2024

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Today, Emily & Rachel talk about the changing landscape of the publishing industry with guest Nicole Meier.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

  • the publishing paths writers have today
  • how publishing has shifted over time
  • what to consider when choosing a publishing path


Nicole's website: https://www.nicolemeier.com/
Nicole's programs: https://www.nicolemeier.com/workwithme
Follow Nicole on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicolemeierwrites/


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Rachel:

Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.

Emily:

I'm Emily.

Rachel:

And I'm Rachel.

Emily:

And today we are talking with our guest, Nicole Meyer, from the Steps to Story podcast. I'm so excited. Welcome, Nicole. We are going to talk about how authors can benefit from publishing's changing landscape, which I am like. So I'm bursting at the scene. Excited to talk about this. Rachel and I have folks in tenacious writing and our larger listener community who are pursuing all the different publishing paths and so many folks who are so overwhelmed by the question of which path to follow. And so. And, like, all of the. It feels like it's changing every month at this point in time. So I'm just so excited to have you. I'm so excited to dive into this. But before we do, before I get ahead of myself, can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself as a writer, a coach, a podcast host? Just let us know who you are.

Nicole Meier:

Thank you. That was so nice. And I'm so excited that you're excited to talk about this, because you're right. Everything feels like it's shifting and changing on the monthly, if not the daily. So I'm so happy to talk about this. So, yeah. My name's Nicole Meyer, and I am a four times published author of Upmarket women's fiction novels. And then over Covid, as many of us did, I did a pivot, and I became a certified book coach for fiction writers.

Emily:

Yay.

Nicole Meier:

And I'm also a developmental editor, and I have a podcast called Step Satori that's also for fiction writers.

Rachel:

I love it.

Emily:

You're like us.

Rachel:

Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say, we have such a similar journey with book coaching. And when we meet other coaches, I'm always so curious. Did you start out writing, and then when Covid, like, you got your, you know, your books published and then went into Covid and were like, I think, like, what. What brought on the switch? Was it a switch? Did you start out coaching and then brought in, you know, more published stories? Like, what was it like to do both of these things?

Nicole Meier:

Yeah. I also love doing that about other coaches. So, over Covid, I was naive enough to think that we were only gonna be home for two weeks.

Emily:

As were all of us.

Nicole Meier:

Right. This was early, early days. So I thought, gosh, I have a lot of creative friends in actual, actually different fields. You know, painters, muralists, singers, writers. And I thought I would throw up a few workshops online to keep the creativity going. And I invited all of the creative people I knew, and I really thought it was just going to be a two week program. That one month went into two month, and it landed five months. I was just filling up every month with people. And what happened at the end of those five months is that all the writers in the group asked me if I would stay with them until they were finished writing their book.

Rachel:

Oh, wow.

Nicole Meier:

And I thought, I think this is coaching, and I really liked it, but what I thought was, if I'm going to do this the right way, I need to level up my game. And so I went and got certified through author accelerator. And that's a really robust program. It's like, I think it was six to eight months of a lot of work, and I absolutely devoured everything. And so I became certified and really went in heavy. And I thought, I love writing books, but I actually love this more because I was so alone when I was writing my novels. I felt like I was in a bubble. Yes, I had creative community, but there were so many things about the craft and about the industry that I just felt alone in. And so now I always tell people, my job as a book coach is serving my younger self because I am being the person I wish I had for me when I was writing.

Rachel:

Yeah, I love that so much.

Emily:

We're both like, yes, that's us. Yes.

Nicole Meier:

You guys, tell me really quickly, you guys were writers and then became coaches as well?

Emily:

Yeah. We met as critique partners and also felt, I feel like so many writers start out and it's just such a, it can feel like a crazy thing to do, especially the other people in your life are not creatives, let alone writers, to, like, take on the project of a book. And so I feel like that loneliness story is so, it resonates with us and with everyone in our community, and we talk about that all the time because then we found each other and we were like, oh, my God, it's amazing to have somebody else who is this nerdy about writing and, like, this supportive. And so that's how we decided we wanted to work with other writers and created our community and got where we are.

Nicole Meier:

I love it.

Rachel:

Yeah, probably around the same time, because we in 2019 ish 20. Yeah, it was 2019 when we were like, I think we really, really love doing this. And then we also did author accelerator training around that time.

Nicole Meier:

Oh, wow.

Rachel:

Yeah. And did not certify. So we're not certified, but we did the training. We came out of it, and we were like, we could do this. This is amazing. Like, we have each other. We have everything we need to start the business that helps other people. We've learned so much. Like, this is so incredible. And then we went into 2020 and thought the same thing of, like, two weeks. We're building a business, two weeks at home. And then it was like, oh, nope.

Emily:

Well, we finished the training before COVID happened.

Rachel:

Yeah, we did.

Emily:

And we were like, okay, we're ready to take clients. And then it was like, the world is shutting down.

Rachel:

Yeah, we did that training in fall of 2019.

Nicole Meier:

Oh, my gosh.

Rachel:

At the time, we talk about this a lot on the podcast. I had just gotten pregnant. We had been planning to have a child for quite a while and finally got pregnant. And I had just told everybody at my work, like, I was barely showing. I was three months, four months pregnant. I was like, yay, I'm pregnant. And then it was like, go home. Went home. Never saw any of those people ever again.

Nicole Meier:

Oh, my word.

Rachel:

Started a whole business.

Emily:

Covid was a wild time. But while all of our lives changed, apparently during that time, so did publishing.

Rachel:

So did publishing.

Emily:

So did publishing segue. But, yeah, so publishing paths, we talk about this a lot, and I was thinking maybe we could start with just, like, defining what the major publishing paths are, because I know that a lot of writers come and they're like, uh, indie self hybrid. Like, what do all these things mean? Traditional? Like, why are. How are they different? And I know that all of them have kind of changed over time, but I'm so curious, like, how would you, like, could you define for us and for listeners kind of what your understanding of each of the major publishing paths is at this point in time before we start dissecting them?

Nicole Meier:

Absolutely. And I actually really love talking about this because I have intimate knowledge of two of the channels. So I have two books that were traditionally published, and then I have two that were hybrid published. So I'm happy to answer all questions about that. But really, when I was coming into my author journey, you know, twelve years ago, there was really. There were really just two choices, right? There was chocolate and vanilla. It was self publishing or traditional publishing. And then you had maybe some literary small presses sprinkled on top, and that has changed wildly. You know, back then, I would say there was still a big stigma around self publishing because it was a lot of writers. Maybe low quality work was flooding channels like Amazon's createspace. Right. But fast forward to today, and we have book coaches, developmental editors courses, communities, critique groups, beta readers, all these things that are upping the level of people's work. And so now I believe that and we'll get into it. Like you said, dissecting self publishing, but the higher quality work is coming forward and that's changed the stigma. It's erased the stigma and it's like, oh, yes, there is high quality work entering all these different channels. So, yeah, I guess just to back up for anyone listening who's thinking, I actually don't know what all the publishing paths are. You've got your self publishing, you have your small presses, you have hybrid press, and then you have big five or going to be big four traditional publishers. And each of those have pros and cons. Each of them have completely different sales team, distribution, marketing, book covers, you name it. It's wildly different within each.

Emily:

Yeah, I would love to hear a little bit more about hybrid publishing because you said you published a couple of hybrids, and I feel like that's one that doesn't get talked about a ton. And so I would love to hear about, you know, what is it for folks who don't know? And what has your experience been like going because you went from traditional to hybrid, right.

Nicole Meier:

I started with hybrid, and then I started backwards. Then I got an agent, and that agent was able to get me a two book deal with a traditional. And then after that, for my last book that just came out, the city of books, I went back to my original hybrid publisher.

Emily:

Got it.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah.

Emily:

Oh, so tell us more.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah. And this is why I'm so excited, is because people have choice now, right? It's not still that chocolate and vanilla. It's like, okay, let's think about what's right for not only me or anyone out there, you as an author, what's right for the title that you're putting out right now. And so for me, there's so many reasons, and I can address that later, but I can talk about hybrid. So hybrid was my first experience into publishing back in 2015. And I had looked for agents. I did the typical thing that a lot of us do where you query forever and ever. I got some feedback, and I was just. I was feeling frustrated because I was running out of time. You know, I think nine months after querying agents, I finally got a really lovely, detailed, almost chapter by chapter feedback from an agent, which was amazing. And she was telling me why the book wasn't working. And that was a gift. Right. So I went back and changed everything. And I thought, I. I don't want to do this for another two to three years because we all know it's a very long process to get an agent and then to go on submission, which takes forever, and then to get the book on the shelf. So I looked into different options. I thought I was going to go small press at the time. And someone I can't remember introduced me to all female led hybrid publisher, which was Spark Press, and they're now owned by shewrites, but they weren't back then. And I really loved the model because I got to have all creative control. It was very collaborative. I understood their approach in terms of sales teams, distribution, marketing. And I went for it and I got a lot of really nice press once that book came out. And after I got that press and good reviews, I had two agents offer representation for whatever I wrote next. And I went with the one that felt right for me. And then she was able to sell me to Lake Union, which is owned by Amazon Publishing in a two book deal. So I moved over to traditional publishing with them. And it was great in a lot of ways, I'm extremely grateful for that opportunity. It opened so many doors and it was fun. But the bigger you go, the smaller fish. You are in a big sea. And I started to feel that and I thought, you know, for me in particular, I don't think this is a love match. You know, I was the person who acquired me, moved on, and then I was inherited by another acquisitions editor who did not pick me. I did not pick her. And, you know, it's just, you lose a lot of control. I didn't pick my title, I didn't pick my cover. I just felt myself losing control. And I thought, some people love this, but for me the joy is being sapped out of the process. And then when my fourth book came around, I wrote about indie bookstores. That's actually the premise of my book. It's about these staff members who move in to save a bookstore.

Rachel:

Love it.

Nicole Meier:

And I thought, yeah. And I thought, you know, if I'm going to do this, I need to be in brick and mortar and I need to be representing like I need to walk the walk. And I think that Amazon was the right person to sell a book about indie bookstores. And so I went back to my hybrid and I said, I loved my experience with you, and they said, done, let's do it. So I signed a contract and then my agent was still able to sell my other rights elsewhere, right? So she was able to sell foreign rights elsewhere for me, my audio rights elsewhere. And I would say for anyone thinking about whatever path you want to choose, you have to know your goals. You know, I knew going in this is eyes wide open. I need to market myself. I need to take a lot of ownership. I need to treat this like opening a small business. I always say you have to be an entrepreneur when you do things like this. So it's not going in blind saying whatever. I just trust whomever I sign with. You have to have a big ownership in it. But it's one of the best decisions I made for me personally. And I do think everyone's different. But I've loved being with hybrid.

Emily:

I love that because. So I'm also with Amazon Publishing. Different branch. Yeah. So I'm with 47 north. So totally understand what you're talking about because the Amazon's kind of its own beast as a traditional publisher because it pushes ebooks so much. So I just want to highlight every book needs a different path. And so I think that's such a cool story of like this publisher is not going to represent the book and push the book in the avenues where I want it to be pushed, whereas some books do really well as ebooks and Amazon is going to push them super well. But that makes total sense as to the topic of the story and everything. So I just think that's really cool.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah. Yeah. So whatever questions you have about hybrid, I'm happy to answer, but a big one was distribution. So I think that a lot of writers I come across don't realize that if you sign with a small press or certain hybrids that it's ebook only. They have no sales teams. They don't accept returns from bookstores, so they won't sell your book into brick and mortar. And with my particular hybrid, they're all about sales team. Actually, they just got acquired. Their distribution just got purchased by Simon and Schuster. So they're going to be distributed by them. But it's all about sales teams into brick and mortar. It's all about that kind of distribution. So, yeah, if I had written a book that I was like, this is going to do awesome as an ebook, I totally want that. I would have gone one direction. But with this book, especially because it's about bookstores, I was like, I have to have this in brick and mortar and I have to go. The person who has the right sales force and the right distribution.

Emily:

Yeah, it's a business decision and we talk a lot because, yeah, so I'm with Amazon. Rachel is self published, and so we talk a lot about it's a business decision for the book and for the type of relationship that you want to have and the type of control that you want to have. So can you talk like, you've mentioned that different hybrids are different, right. In terms of what they provide. And so this might be a difficult question to answer, but I know that there are folks who have asked us kind of what, what can you expect from a relation, from a hybrid relationship? Or, like, why might you want to go that route versus some of the other routes?

Nicole Meier:

Yeah. I would say to anyone considering any channel, self publishing, hybrid, small press, big, traditional, find someone, an author who's already published that way, and ask a lot of questions. Yeah, right. Ask everything. Like, don't be afraid. Ask everything you need to know. Know your goals, know what's important to you. Some people love creative control. Some people are like, I don't want any control. That feels too overwhelming. But I would say when it comes to hybrid in particular, because I think that's what you're asking, is reach out to a few that you think you've either heard of or you love their book covers, or, you know some of their authors, and reach out to some of their authors, but also reach out to the actual hybrid company, you know, who's ever on their team, and ask pointed questions. I remember talking to one hybrid and saying, well, I sell as upmarket women's fiction. And I said, what other authors do you have within my genre? And he paused, and he said, oh, we don't really think about genre that way. Like, we're just all fiction. I thought, nope, not going with him, because he doesn't even know the definition of these different genres, and he just wants to take my money. So you need to ask all the questions, and then you need to see it written out in a clear contract of what comes with it. For me in particular, I get all collaboration. I get a wonderful editorial calendar that really is step by step, which I know a handful of my friends with small presses. They get zero editorial calendar. So I know what's coming, all of the interior and the exterior building of the book, when I'm getting the book cover, when's the proofreading happening? When's it going to the printer? When do I get my arcs? Do I get arcs? That's a big one to ask. I get involved in the tip sheet, what actually goes to the salesforce so they can sell you into bookstores. You have to ask these kinds of questions because if you just go into any publisher and say, just do with me what you will, you might be a little disappointed, thinking, oh, I forgot to ask that, or, gosh, I'm not getting support or I have no idea when I'm getting my next round of edits because they're just completely foggy on it. Does that make sense?

Emily:

Yeah, it totally makes sense. And I think one of the things that people will come to me or questions people will come to me with or not even question, but just like, overwhelm is like, well, I don't know what questions to ask. And I think your point of talking to people who have gone that route or who have, they, they know the questions, right. They've already asked them or they have already forgotten to ask them or they wish that they had asked them. Right. And so if you talk to people who have, like, before I sign it with Amazon, I talked to somebody who was with my actual branch of the Amazon publishing team because I wanted to know, like, what was her experience, like and what questions should I be asking? And all of those things. And, like, that. That's not overreaching, right? It's not. People want to talk to you about this because people know what it's like to not have, but not even know what questions to ask. And so you are not going to overstep if you reach out to an author who is with a press or a publisher or an agent or whoever that you are considering.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah.

Rachel:

Yeah. I've had people. I also think one key difference in your story is that I think you retained a lot of your own agency like you were in, especially in the second round. It sounds like you're asking these questions not to just verify are they, like, a valid publisher? You know, like, you're also asking them to make sure they're a good fit for you. Like, you are in charge of that decision. And I think a lot of writers approach the publishing journey as if they must be picked. And, like, once they are picked, they don't. Like, they don't have a choice. Like, they. They have to say yes or they're gonna lose their opportunity and, like, no. You can say no to people and go look somewhere else because they're not a good fit for you. I think retaining that power like that we have over our, our journeys is really important for any of these paths because, you know, if you're just being told, well, this is how we do it, or this is, this is the way, and you're not asking the questions and you're also not determining, like, what it is that you want, you're probably going to get yourself into a situation that you don't fully enjoy and you don't like. And, like, that could be tricky.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah, I love that you said that. Because one of the things that I think has changed the most since I got into publishing is that the old guard was waiting for permission. The old guard was waiting for a gatekeeper to allow you to come into the next step of your journey. And there's many steps in the journey now. That's not true. I remember going to a couple of writer conferences this past year, and anyone that was younger than me, I'm 51, so it's like anyone younger than me was. I felt like the new guard, the new generation coming in, saying, duh, why wouldn't you take your own creative endeavors into your own hands? Why are you waiting for permission? And I just thought, oh, that's the new way. And that is the better way.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah.

Rachel:

It's less. There's so many reasons, like, why it's better, but it just gives you so much more. We tackle agency, and, like, we talk also about, like, the mindset that you go into publishing with, and, like, the waiting for approval is probably going to get you in a tricky situation. Waiting to be picked, like, only allowing other people to give you permission to tell you, like, to give you value and worth. I feel like when we see authors that are unhappy, it's usually for some reason of that. Of like that. That was an attitude or a mindset at some point in the journey. And that's not to say that anyway, but I do think that retaining that power and that mindset that I'm in charge of this, and if I don't mesh with this one publishing path or this one publisher, I can find something different. Ends up resulting in much stronger deals and much stronger books, and you get your voice into the world. I think all of this is important and powerful and not to be discounted just because you approached one person and they said yes, even though you know in your gut that doesn't really feel right.

Nicole Meier:

Right? Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah. We have so many more choices now, and I think the responsibility that comes with that is that we need to look inward at what we actually want for ourselves and for our books. And it can be hard to know what you want. And I think to go back to what Nicole was saying earlier, talk to people, not just who are going down the path that you're considering, but every other path. Right. Like, talk to people who've done hybrid, talk to people who've done small press and self and traditional and all the different things so that you can understand. Right. People want something different out of their relationship with their book going into the world. And when you figure out what you want, you still will have choices. Right. It's not going to narrow you into not being picked because you weren't open. Right. But it's going to give you so much more agency and probably open more doors because you're going to know what you're looking for and you're going to know what you want and you're going to show up that way, and that's going to take you really far. Awesome. So let's talk about publishing as a whole. Publishing feels like it's going through a major shift right now, and we've touched on this a little bit, but I'm so curious, how have you seen it change over time? And what changes do you think are having the biggest impact for authors now and people who are going to be published in the next few years?

Nicole Meier:

Yeah. And again, it comes down to all the choices that have come up and you all know because you're in this industry, but I think with the arrival of author's equity onto the scene this year, which is a need to reshape the relationship between the publisher and the author, I think that that is a real big indicator of, okay, the market's changing. People are seeing that they want to give authors their own sense of agency, to use your word, and give them a stake in their own game. And that was brought on by veterans from the big five. So I think that's a big indicator. I do think self publishing is going to be the thing. I think so many more authors are leaving where they were or starting out there saying, oh, yeah, self publishing is the way to go. And I think that small presses are going to have a hard time just monetarily to keep up with everything that's going on. But maybe that just means they're going to be even more boutique than they were before. So I do think that these choices are coming forward. I do think, like I said, because there are ways to get your craft to where it needs to be. Authors are going to feel more confident to go in all these different directions. If I'm going to go self publishing, great. I know there's courses or coaches or whomever to help me. If I'm going to go traditional, I'm going to go eyes wide open and know I've got to really have some agency and say yes or no to things that feel right for me or wrong for me. But I really do think that self publishing is going to be the thing. I mean, I talk to writers every day. You guys do, too. And when I lay it all out and say, here's the four paths. Here's where they're going. Here's the pros and cons. They all are kind of nodding along, going, okay, I'm going to sort of go for what feels right for me, not just what I thought I was supposed to be doing. Yeah, yeah.

Emily:

That's supposed to really sticks. It's like a burr that stays with us. So how do you think authors can, like, what ways can authors benefit from how publishing is changing right now?

Nicole Meier:

Yeah, I think knowledge is power. Even five years ago, I would talk to authors and they would be shell shocked that they finally got the big deal and they got, you know, they arrived, they're welcome to the show. And then the big publisher would say, but we're not doing any marketing for you. You gotta do your own. And they would be horrified and shocked and caught unaware. So now I think everybody is really catching on to no matter what your path is, you need to treat it like a small business, like an entrepreneur. You need to have a platform. You need to think about where you want to put money. Is that going to be upfront, front? Is that going to be in the back end? You need to think about how, if I want to have a body of work, not just one title, what does that look like from a strategic standpoint? And I think knowledge is power. Like, don't go in anywhere blindly. Ask all the questions. Talk to whomever we'll talk to, like you said, because that is the best way to find out the real, real behind each channel. Yeah, yeah.

Emily:

And to kind of follow up with that. What do you think of the risks? Because I get a lot of resistance, especially from folks who are new to the industry or who are just starting out writing. I still feel like those shoulds from the past are carrying over. And so I'm curious what you think writers are risking by not considering the new changes and by not kind of embracing where the publishing landscape is headed.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah, I would say with anything in life, if you don't know if you're resistant to change, I'll say it a different way. If you're resistant to change, you'll be left behind. We just know that in all facets of life. So they risk being left behind, to say it quite bluntly. And they also risk missing out on the joy. You know, it breaks my heart to see people with good work. I see so many manuscripts, as you guys do, too, that come across my desk that are high quality stories, but they're just not fitting into a certain genre that's marketable. They're not fitting into a specific box that an agent's willing to take on. And these authors are going two, four, six years queering, and it's hard on their mental health. It's completely, you know, stopping their career from getting going. And I just think you run the risk if you don't know all your options available to you, you run the risk of not only being left behind, but being left out completely.

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah. I think that's so important. Like, I feel like that's where I was before COVID on trad publishing. But what changed my mind was talking to people. Yeah, like, we're back to asking questions, like, what changed my mind? Because I didn't know I had my own little world. I had the books that I would buy from the store. I also feel like an important part of this is reading what's out there because I read traditionally published books. And so then I knew, like, that's what I wanted. And then I talked to self published authors and I read self published books and I like, got in and I got ingratiated in the self publishing side and that's how I was able to make, make the choice. But I was unwilling to change until I asked, until I started talking and I started listening. I think that's so crucial because you do get left behind. I mean, even in the last four years, I'm thinking of some of the major self published authors that I read that have a huge backlist now and are making like making like a ridiculous amount of money. Like ridiculous. And I look at them and I'm like, wow, if only I would have done this four years ago. I don't want to do like a comparison kind of deal, but imply one way is better. But I do think that, like, staying on top of change can really benefit you. Three or four years down the road when everybody is catching on, it's kind of like that early adopter mindset from the tech world if you're adopting these early trends. Which leads me to one question. You mentioned marketing as like a really big difference, I think, from old publishing to new publishing, where now I think almost everybody is expected to do a level of marketing. One of the other questions that comes to my mind of changes are, have you noticed changes in the editing sphere, which I think we've mentioned specifically how dev editors can really benefit self published artists? But are there any, any other changes in the trad or hybrid world with editing? And also like, I kind of want to talk about AI eventually. I don't know if you have any thoughts in that zone? Because that feels like we're in the cusp. Right. Like, that's another thing of AI in writing. Is it ethical? What are we doing? How are people adopting it? Because I really find it hard to believe that big five, like the big four, big five corporations are not asking the same question of, like, how can we capitalize on AI? I know Amazon's asking that question because I see it in the background of, like, we're going to use AI. And anyway, my first question was, what else besides marketing are you seeing? And then maybe we can loop around to, is there anything. Do you have any thoughts in the AI zone?

Nicole Meier:

Yeah. Okay. I have a lot of thoughts.

Rachel:

Let's go.

Nicole Meier:

Okay. So I'm going to say within the past five years, maybe even three years, I have seen a shift. So what I mean by that, in terms of us marketing, first, we're just getting authors, emerging authors, to realize, oh, yeah, you have to do some part of your own marketing. Once you get the book deal and your book comes out of, that's sort of the back end marketing. But what I'm seeing in the past three to five years is this does not apply to just nonfiction authors anymore. It's applying to fiction authors. You have got to have a platform, and so now you have to market yourself before the book's even pitched. You got to get the book, you know, fully written, fully out there, publish it, or pitch it, and then you have to think about marketing on the back end. And that is brand new. I mean, if you guys listen what you do, you listen all the podcasts out there, watch all the workshops, the webinars. Everyone is talking about, like, okay, now we have to have a platform before the book's even finished written. And it's so much for the writer. You know, it's a lot to take on. But I do think that that's a trend that's here to stay. And I think it's new. New. And that, again, knowledge is power. If you don't pay attention to the changes in the marketplace, you're gonna be left behind.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah. And that's true for trial. I think that's. That's the biggest myth that I heard. I folks say is they want to go trad because they think they won't have to market. And it is a very, very small percentage of folks in that industry who don't have to think about that, if anybody. And so I think, yeah, it's so important that we are talking about this because it's so different. Right. We're all here because we write books, not because we like to do social media and all these things. But I think what's really interesting to me is, like, social media is a way to market, but people are starting to talk about other things that we can do, like podcast interviews and cold pitching and just other ways that we can show up. Substack is a really cool way that folks are marketing, and so there's other things that are popping up because we have to. Regardless of whatever publishing path you choose, this is a question we all have to start to answer. The way that you market your book is going to be different based on who you are and based on what your book is and based on where your audience is. So, yeah, I think that's. I love that. But continue what I'll typically.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah, and I just. I will say, just to add on to your point before I move on, is you're totally right. And it's not as scary as people think. You don't have to be on Instagram and TikTok at all if you don't want to. You can have a sub stack. You can just go on threads and talk to your community. Having a platform or marketing can look the way it should look for you as an individual. You don't have to do the shoots. And that's what's exciting. So I don't want people out there to be overwhelmed and have the shakes when they get off this. I have to have a platform and market and find the right publisher. It's one step at a time. It's doing what's right for you. It's listening to your inner voice and following that. Yeah. Okay. So when you were saying, rachel, about editing and AI, I was like, oh, I actually have an example that marries both of those.

Rachel:

Nice. Okay.

Nicole Meier:

So two years ago, I had a publisher reach out to me and ask if I was interested in a freelance developmental edit gig. And I opened up the proposal, and it was to edit only AI authors.

Rachel:

Oof.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah. And this was two years ago.

Rachel:

Wow.

Nicole Meier:

And I obviously said no. Yeah. But that's something I don't think people realize is that. So what they wanted me to do was take all the content and shape it into story structure so it made sense, but they were only representing all AI authors. And so that's here.

Rachel:

AI author is a terminal. Make me crystal a little bit. I'm like, what does that even mean?

Nicole Meier:

You can find it on Amazon. Yeah. If you go on Amazon and search for just AI written books, there's a bunch of them.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah.

Rachel:

So you said no.

Nicole Meier:

I said no.

Rachel:

But someone else, I mean, they found. Obviously they found someone else because it still is. Still is a thing. So where. Where are we headed with? I don't know how this benefits us, how it's a little risky. Tricky.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah. Did you guys hear about the conference in Vegas this year? What is it called?

Rachel:

50 books to books to 50k.

Nicole Meier:

Okay. So that was AI pushed. And I had heard from other writer friends who attended saying one of the main talks there was about, when you have writer's block, you have AI write the book, and then you go in and add your own flavor to it. So that's where I think it's going, is that there's people who want to fast track it, and then there's people who love art and people who will stay with, you know, writing the book the authentic way. So I think it's sort of like a fork in the road. What do you guys think?

Rachel:

I feel like I've thought about this a lot because some of my clients went to that conference. So we have discussed it. I do have. I do have clients that are in the 20 books to 50k like, path in that pipeline. And I also have some clients that are, like, wildly successful with their self published books that have exceeded fifty k and are still like, okay, but how do we continue creating books? And so I don't want to debate the ethics of it because I feel like it's such a broad topic, but it doesn't feel like there are. Well, now I'm going to debate the ethics of it. As I say that right now I see a sliver and I feel like it's a tool. Like, AI can act as a tool but shouldn't replace. So I feel like if you are, for example, struggling to name something, going to AI and asking a question of, I need five names that fit this thing under this context. Being specific with your prompts, I feel like, might be helpful, but at the same time, like, it feels icky to me that there are books being written by AI and then edited by humans and, like, those are making money because I know where that content is coming from is other people who have written books. So I do feel like it's a slippery slope, but as a tool, I think it could probably be really powerful. But as soon as it starts replacing jobs, taking from other people, like, then it feels. It feels a little icky. And we don't have. We don't have an ethics committee. We don't have an ethics board. AI is new across all industries, including publishing. Right now, it feels like you have to navigate what feels right to you, but what feels right to me doesn't feel the same to someone else. And how are people going to benefit from a tool that maybe is giving them work that's not their own? I don't know. It's tricky. It's a very unsteady ground, it feels like to me, but I can't believe that it won't be part of the industry as a whole in the next three to five years. It feels like I would not want to move to that direction, but I can see how an industry would push it.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah.

Rachel:

You know, I am in the camp of, like, I make art. I find joy making art. I want to continue to make art. But I can also see some people with other goals that are like, I make money, I want to continue making money. And this is an easier way of making money. And, like, I don't know. I don't know.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah, it seems.

Rachel:

Yeah, I feel like it's going to go in. It's probably going to go in a lot of different directions, but I can't see it going away.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah, I agree.

Emily:

Yeah. It'll be interesting to keep tabs on where it's headed because I agree. I mean, it's like any tool, right. It can be used for various ways.

Rachel:

Good or for evil.

Emily:

Good or evil. Yeah. But I have a client right now who's doing a historical fiction, and it has been so helpful for her to find sources and put timelines together and things like that. But that's not right. That's nothing. Stealing from the, you know, the. What is it like standing on the shoulders of giants? Like, now we're just stealing from them? Like, I don't know. I agree, Rachel. Like, for me, that that's where the line gets real fuzzy. But, yeah, that doesn't mean, you know, when have ethics stopped? Most of the time. So we're gonna. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see where it goes and how the different publishing paths interact with it.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah, I don't know. It's anybody's guess, but I think that, yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

Rachel:

Yeah. I do think, though, that when you have these, like, $20 to 50k is a huge community. It's a huge market, for lack of better term, it's a huge community. And when some of these really larger communities push a specific fork, I do think it behooves us. It is a comment upon us to ask the questions of, like, what are we doing. What are the implications of this? What are the consequences of this? And I'm not trying to criticize 20 books to 50k, but if you're going to put on a conference about writing books faster and that your only solution is AI, I think there's still a responsibility to ask, how is this going to impact the rest of the industry? Because it. Yeah, it will. Like, that feels like a tool that you make one choice and it affects a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people. And that's not often how these things go. Like, you can kind of mind your own business in some of these regards and like, it's fine, but the more people that make a choice to use AI in that way, the more we're going to see consequences. Positive or negative? We don't, we don't know yet, but probably negative. That's my. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. What do you have any other, like, maybe. I think there's positives. I think there's positives of, like, it can be really powerful, like Emily just said, but maybe we just need to ask careful questions.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah, well, and again, I mean, everything we've talked about today has been what are the rapid changes down the pipeline? And look at all the changes or the new things that we have discussed just in this conversation. So that just solidifies the fact that publishing and the landscape involved is ever changing. And if you put your head in the sand and don't pay attention to the changes, you won't be informed. And that way you don't know what the right choice is for you.

Emily:

Yeah, yeah. And I also think if you are holding on to shoulds rather than looking inward, you're going to get swept along with those changes in ways that, I mean, we all write. Right. A lot of us want to write a couple books, multiple books, many, maybe lots of books, right. Over the next however many years. And the industry is going to be so different in three years, in five years, in ten years. And if you aren't sure about or kind of standing in your own surety around what it is that you want for your books, I think it's going to be really easy to get swept up in all of these rapid changes and swept under and left behind, as you said earlier. Right. So it's important to pay attention, but it's also, I think, really important to listen to your gut and what you want and just claim that because the industry is just like a tumultuous ocean that we're all just riding the current of.

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah. I do have another question for you. I know we have a couple left on our list and we can start wrapping up, but do you feel like there are any go, no goes, any red flags for some of these different publishing paths? And what I mean by that is I think vanity presses are very much still a thing, and they can often masquerade as other things. And so, like, what I, I had someone just recently, like two or three weeks ago, dm me on instagram and be like, this place said they'll publish my book for $3,000. It includes all of this. Do you think that's a good deal? And, like, my knowledge and my experience is no, like, those publishing vanity presses are red flags. They're not usually going to give you what you're looking for. So, number one, do you find that still the truth? And number two, are there any other kind of red flags that stand out of, like, if you're going to pay money for this, it might not be what you think it is or risky pitfalls?

Nicole Meier:

Yeah, such a good question. And very important because there are so many different nuances to different sort of publishers out there. You know, that kind of brings to mind someone I know who went with, they were writing kind of a spiritual self help book, and there is an imprint that I won't say the name, but they're very well established and known that still asks for money for a contest. And if you win, you get a discount on them. You still have to pay them, helping you write the book and publish the book and market the book. And I thought, okay, so you're not really winning anything, they're just giving you a discount on paying more. This feels wrong. When there's money involved, it's definitely important to ask a lot of questions, but really look at the success or lack of success from the authors who have come before you within that channel. Do they have a body of work? Are they a career author, or is it just a one off? Look on Amazon and see how many reviews they have. What are the reviews really do? A deep dive, because, yes, a lot of hybrids and partner publishers, even with self publishing, ask for money upfront and see if you can figure out what I'm getting for this. Will I be able to earn out, you know, I get very into the weeds with what kind of, you know, return am I getting in terms of royalty? So is that going to pay, you know, pay out? Am I going to earn out what I put in the beginning? What other investment do I have to make? Do I have to pay a publicist do I have to put money in for an editor? Really look at it from a business mind? But if that all sounds amazing, it's a vanity publisher, and they're offering you all this. And here's the long list of what they're offering. You still have to go find an author that's been with them and really say, were they successful? Is this even the kind of book I would pick up and want to read? Is this who I want to be aligned with and go from there?

Rachel:

Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah. This is. I feel like we keep coming back to talk to other authors, but I think that's a huge shift, because it used to be that everybody was, like, zipped. Nobody talked. It was like, oh, everything's hunky dory. I've made all this money. Right. Like, because people didn't want to make it look like they were struggling or, like, tarnish their image or go against their publisher or threaten the gatekeepers. Right. Like, so nobody talked about anything. And I think we have seen such a massive shift in traditional, but also especially in the other ones, where now we have more choices, but with more. And we have more support. Right. You can hire editors. You can't. But that comes with its own pitfalls. Right. Because not all of the editors who throw up a website are going to be good. And so do your research. Talk to people. I think that's the biggest shift that. One of the biggest shifts that we've seen as a result of all the other shifts is that authors are talking to each other more and are more willing to share information. And so, you know, if you're an author with experience, like, offer that experience up to other folks in the communities that you're in, and then if you're an author seeking someone with experience, don't be afraid to ask, because that is becoming more and more of the norm, is that we need to talk to each other because they're, with all of these changes and all of the opportunity that comes with these changes, there are also a lot of people who are trying to take advantage of that opportunity, whether it's vanity, you know, bad vanity presses or, you know, editors who aren't editors, um, and are just trying to make some money. So, yeah, I think that's just striking me as a big shift that we've seen in the last few years.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah, 100%.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah.

Rachel:

And you. You said this before, like, there's no harm in asking, and it can be as simple as a DM on Instagram.

Emily:

Yeah.

Nicole Meier:

Yeah.

Rachel:

Like, people dm me questions, and I'm like, yeah, I'm happy to answer your questions. Like, I love talking about it. I think most people who have been through something like this are more than happy to. More than happy to talk about it. And it can be an email, it can be a DM. Like, you don't have to be like, hey, can I schedule an hour with you to go over these questions? That's a big ask. But if you're. You send a DM and you're like, hey, I'm an author. I saw you did this thing. I'm really interested in it. Can I ask you some questions? Most people are like, yeah, just be kind, respectful, and, like, you're gonna say, no, move on. Yeah, yeah.

Nicole Meier:

And I would say to anyone thinking of reaching out to whomever you hit the nail on the head is also be very polite. You know, we've all had people reach out to us, sort of demanding, and then why haven't you gotten back to me? And it's like, okay, that didn't feel very polite. I'm super busy. I'm sorry I didn't answer it within an hour. But I can't, you know, I can't be all things to all people in. Within, you know, one day. So be polite and understand that that person probably will pay it forward and tell you some good nuggets of truth, but also just be respectful. Yeah, yeah.

Emily:

Absolutely. Awesome. Well, to wrap us up, do you have any other advice for writers who are considering which path to choose for a particular story or their career as a whole? I know we've covered a lot, but.

Nicole Meier:

Anything else you would add, I would say, and you guys will probably agree with me, is the most important thing is to join a community that could be a community of two people, that could be a community of 100 people. But you will find such a wealth of information and knowledge and experiences within your writing community, and doing it in a bubble is sort of passe. So find somebody, and then you guys can start bouncing ideas off each other, asking, and that's just so powerful. So that's my big piece of advice. Yeah, 100% agree.

Rachel:

Yeah, you're so right. We completely agree all about it.

Emily:

Awesome. Well, Nicole, where can people find you and your work and work with you if they want to tell us about where we can find you on the Internet or elsewhere.

Nicole Meier:

So you can find me a few ways. You can go on my website, which is nicolemeyer.com, and that's with an I. Or you can find me on Instagram. I'm over there a lot. Nicole Meyer writes and then I do have my, I run a small group twice a year, which is a small group novel writing program, and that is opening up this September. So I'm not sure exactly when it's airing, but if people are interested in just poking around and finding out what that's all about, that's also@nichollcolemeyer.com dot amazing.

Rachel:

This is wonderful. We're going to put links for your website and your instagram and your page for checking out your group, all in our show notes. So if you're listening, swipe up and you can tap those, tap those links and go check them out.

Emily:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Nicole. It has been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast. We can't wait to chat with you again. Thank you.

Nicole Meier:

Thank you. And for anyone listening, you two are going to be on my podcast this.

Emily:

Fall, too, to talk about our other favorite topic. We have so many.

Nicole Meier:

Thank you guys very much.

Emily:

Thank you.

Rachel:

Okay, if you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.

Emily:

Sign up now to get our free email course. The magic of character arcs. After seven days of email Magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.

Rachel:

Link in the show notes. We'll see you there. Bye.