Story Magic

65 - Spicy and erotic romance with Jordyn Kross

July 11, 2024 • Golden May

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Today, Rachel talks about spicy and erotic romance with guest Jordyn Kross.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

  • What erotic romance actually is
  • How to ensure your spicy/intimate scenes always have a purpose
  • Tips and tricks for writing intimate scenes


Jordyn's website: https://jordynkross.com/
Naughty Words for Nice Writers by Cara Bristol: https://www.amazon.com/Naughty-Words-Nice-Writers-Thesaurus-ebook/dp/B00TY0DA5O

Ready to make readers so in love with your characters they can’t stop biting their nails in anticipation?  Grab The Magic of Character Arcs free email course: https://www.goldenmayediting.com/arcsmagic


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Rachel:

Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of. I'm Rachel.

Jordyn:

And I'm Jordan.

Rachel:

And today we're talking about spicy and erotic romance with our very special guest, Jordan Cross. Yay. Welcome, Jordan.

Jordyn:

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Rachel:

Yay. This is going to be a really fun discussion. Very engaging discussion. It's also going to contain some sexually explicit material. We're going to be diving into some not so child friendly things. So if that is not your stuff, just feel free to tune this episode out. But this is going to be such an amazing conversation for writers who are writing spicier romance, interested in writing erotic romance, any type of that more spicy side of things. This will be a wonderful conversation. So I hope you tune in and I hope you enjoy and welcome, Jordan. Yay. As we get started here, I would love for you to tell us a little bit about you, what it is you do, and, you know, how people can find you and what your writing is like.

Jordyn:

Thank you.

Rachel:

Everything.

Jordyn:

My writing is naughty. Yeah. I'm Jordan Cross and I write erotic romance, strictly erotic romance. But I write erotic, contemporary, erotic mystery, erotic, Sci-Fi the one thing you can count on is that there will be an hea and there will be some really hot, explicit sex in my books. I've been writing since about 2014, and I published for the first time in 2019. I didn't think I'd ever be a writer, to be honest. Hated writing in school. Hated everything about it. Thought it was the worst. Got it figured out enough to get through college, actually, without taking an english class. Go figure. Kind of regret that a little bit now. But I think it's because I didn't know about writing dirty as a kid. I always read mysteries. Trixie Belden and all of those great stories and all of that. And my mother always read Harlequin. And it was kind of the shame of the family. And I am not the kid I know, right? I'm not the kid who stole her books. I should have. I did, however, read flowers in the attic far too early, and so maybe that stepped me off in the wrong direction. Or the right direction.

Rachel:

The right direction.

Jordyn:

Yeah. Nothing like a little incest in your ya to get you started nowadays. I don't know that we would really publish that, but there it is. So, yeah. So then I was okay. So, to be honest, I was ill with a kidney infection. I was on a whole lot of drugs, and I was reading dirty stories, as you do. While you're laying in bed feeling miserable. And there was a contest, right? A literary contest. Literary erotic fiction. And I thought, I'm high. I can write that.

Rachel:

I love it.

Jordyn:

So I did. And then it was like I kept writing and I kept writing and I kept writing, and I thought, this is really fun. And there was a second contest. The first contest, I did really well. I had, you know, lots of great feedback and 100,000 views, and people were loving my story. It was terrible. Don't you know, I won't even tell you where it is because I didn't know what an editor was. I didn't know what point of view was. I didn't know so much. And there is so much that goes into writing. But the erotic part was fun. The erotica part of it was fun for me. And so I started writing a second contest entry, and that entry actually became my first published book. Winters list.

Rachel:

Wow, that's amazing.

Jordyn:

Yeah. So that and five years of tears and crying and learning everything the hard way. Right.

Rachel:

Is there another way to learn it, though? Because I don't feel I was an english major. I did take creative writing classes, and, like, it's. No, didn't do anything.

Jordyn:

Yeah, I don't, I think the lessons that really stick with you, that really get, you know, sort of into your soul are definitely painful and leave marks, you know? Yeah, for sure. And it was hard. But, you know, there were writing groups available at that time, and I had tremendous support from a writing group, and I blame my success on them, you know, because I had such great people. And part of that is my critique group, which I'm still a part of. In fact, we formed a business together years later. So, you know, it's been a dream. I didn't know was my dream come true.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

And I just love it. I just absolutely love writing, um, erotic romance.

Rachel:

Yeah. Well, one of the things that feels so clear to me from even just watching you, like, explain it was how much fun you had doing it, like, yeah, it just is so, it's a blast. And I, that I think with any writer, you know, everybody has their, their niches, but it's obvious to me that this was fun and engaging, too. And so, like, why not pursue that and try it out and see, you know, build your writing career off of it?

Jordyn:

I have the best time, and, you know, I have the best time learning. It's one of my, my passions is learning. I'm always in a class or taking something or finding something out, and writing is one of those things where you never stop learning.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

There's always something to get better at to, you know, find insight, especially when you're self published, because you only have the writing side of it, you have the publishing side of it, and, you know, the book manufacturing side of it. And so there's always something to learn.

Rachel:

Yes. Yeah. And it's. I. Since we are writing coaches, we always talk to our clients and our audience and everybody about, like, it is a constant. You don't just hit a peak where you're like, I've learned everything that I can learn, and now here I am. Like, you have to continually keep learning. And on top of that, every project is different and you learn something. You learn something different. So as soon as.

Jordyn:

I hope every project's different.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

You're writing the same thing every single time and changing the setting and the character names. You may, you may be finding some success that way, but eventually you're going to burn out and your readers will burn out because they will figure out they've read it already. And I think that happened a lot. You know, when self publishing first happened and there was this huge drive for content, especially spicy content, there was a real big push for people to just produce, produce, produce, produce, produce. And you're seeing the effects of that now in the industry, both on the reader side and the writer side. And it's a hard situation. Whereas I went into it thinking, I'm not going to make any money for years, but I'm going to have a hell of a good time and I'm going to write some really boundary stretching, like, let's get into some people's heads and see what they're uncomfortable with and try to make them comfortable.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

So I write really explicit sex scenes that. Yeah, that I wasn't reading. So, for instance, my second book, Christmas angel, is a high school teacher and a student.

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah. A little on the taboo side.

Jordyn:

Oh, yeah, definitely. But of course, I made her 20 years old, smart as hell, strong as hell, incredibly talented artist, you know, and so I really played with those power dynamics because that's a real big issue in erotic romance. I had somebody tell me once, well, erotic romance is just bdsm and power dynamics, and that's not really it. That's not it at all.

Rachel:

Well, that leads us into such a great start to this question. I mean, we've already been discussing, so not a start, but a question of, like, what is erotic romance? And I want to tack on a question to that because I consider, I write, why choose Mafia romance? And I would consider that spicy. But I don't know that I would call it erotic. So what's maybe the difference between spicy and erotic? Or what do you consider erotic romance?

Jordyn:

Yeah. So I have fashioned myself as kind of the junior ambassador to the Queen Sylvia Day, who defined these terms when she established passionate Inc. As a chapter of RWA, which has since split off. And I'm currently the president of. But so I feel like I can speak authoritatively to this. So erotic romance, basically is open door romance, where characterization. So your character arc, which I know is a big thing for golden May, your character arc and your plot would be impacted if you close that door.

Rachel:

Okay.

Jordyn:

Okay. So there's emotional things, there's action things that are happening in that moment that are critical to the character arc and the plot.

Rachel:

Got it.

Jordyn:

And that's what takes it from a spicy, explicit story. We have a hard time using the words explicit and implicit, which is actually easier to define than spicy and steamy. And all of these food words that we use for sex.

Rachel:

How many peppers are we at?

Jordyn:

Yeah, I don't even know. So I talk about explicit and implicit. And in your closed door romances, it's very implicit. What has happened behind the doors. Your imagination takes over. The less your imagination takes over, the more explicit your sex is. But there are people who write very explicit stories who can also then strip out those sex scenes, close the door, and have that same story work, plot wise, character arc wise.

Rachel:

Got it.

Jordyn:

Those stories are not erotic romance.

Rachel:

Wow.

Jordyn:

I don't care if they're. They're tying each other up or spanking each other. I don't care if the plot and the character arc aren't happening in the bedroom. It's. Or in the. In the. In intimately.

Rachel:

Right.

Jordyn:

Sex happens in the bedroom, obviously.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

The best sex happens way outside the bedroom. But if. If you need those moments in order to make your plot and your character works, that is an erratic story. Now it's an erratic romance when you get the ATA right. We all know romance has the ATA. I don't care who is on scene this week trying to be the rebel, saying, that's not true. They're wrong. They're writing erotic fiction, and that's great. Erotic fiction is great. That could be erotica, where it's like more of a hero's journey, that kind of thing, and it's less about the relationship, but an erotic romance, it's about the relationship, no matter how many people are involved. Six, seven, you, you know, whatever you need. Tentacles. I don't care.

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah.

Jordyn:

Well, that.

Rachel:

That's so interesting of a definition, because I have had, or I guess my assumption would have been completely opposite, where I feel like many writers would have said, no, erotic romance is more on the smut side. That's gonna be one of the questions that I ask you is, like, what's. What's smut? Where does this fall? But, like, I'm hearing from you that erotic romance, as it's truly defined is that it is. It is inextricable from, like, the. Like you have said, the explicit scenes, the sex scenes are inextricable from the development of the characters and the progression of the plot. And I feel like a lot of people would have not guessed that, would.

Jordyn:

Have said, yeah, we're still struggling, however many years later, to convey that message. And part of it was because, you know, the marketing side of it. So the Bicac codes. The previous president, to me, actually got the bisect codes updated to actually include the category romance erotic, as opposed to the only categories that were available was erotica.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

And a lot of contests use the word erotica instead of erotic romance. And so it's been a long, slow mountain climb to get the terminology defined correctly. In. In the mass.

Rachel:

Right?

Jordyn:

In the masses.

Rachel:

Yeah. Well, okay, so I'm hearing, though, Erotica is different. Erotica might be more smut heavy, might be more explicit.

Jordyn:

Not necessarily. Erotica is. Is just that you're not going to have an hea. Now, erotica can also be written poorly, just like romance can be written poorly. Right? It can. It can not have all the literary features, and it can slide toward what Sylvia would call porn, where it's just about the reader's experience. It really has nothing to do with storytelling and all of that. It's just about an immersion moment, and you're having a great time, which I have no problem with. Enjoy your one handed read. Love it. But if you're. If you're looking at some kind of character arc or journey or plot, it tends to run more into the fiction, and you start to see things like point of view and, you know, some of the other literary conventions that we use with all story. Right? And so that erotic fiction might be just as interesting as, you know, the Martian, where, you know, the guy is living on Mars by himself. Right. It's a solo hero's journey. Right. The only difference is, in erotic fiction, he would have been whacking off all the time, right?

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

Right now, in erotic romance, he would have been trying to figure out how to have sex with the alien and have their relationship and make it work.

Rachel:

Right.

Jordyn:

And he would have had to get over his feeling about her maybe putting a tentacle in his butt because, you know, that he had to grow somehow deal with that. Right. Ultimately was telling him that can't happen. Right. Yet this is what she needs in order for them to have a relationship. You know, I'm just making shit up.

Rachel:

Right? Totally. There's growth there.

Jordyn:

There's character development. Yeah. There's this change an arc.

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I'm thinking, I just did my book, blood in the water came out in April, and I did a little stint on Netgalley with it. And even there, like, there's not erotic romance. There's romance and there's erotica. And it was difficult for me to place the book to get the most reader, like, the most accurate reader expectation because it's terrible to have it be mislabeled and then a reader picks it up and it's not what they're looking for. And, like, you know, both of that.

Jordyn:

It really is difficult for the readers who love us to find us without the proper terminology. And it really is a struggle out there to get. I mean, Amazon still doesn't use erotic romance, and that bisect code has been available for a couple years now.

Rachel:

Yeah, they're so weird about the categories.

Jordyn:

Yes. We don't have a problem at all with extreme violence, but take off your clothes and suddenly everybody's offended.

Rachel:

Yes, exactly. I think we could probably go into a very long discussion about the background of this, but I'm sure there's, in my experience, just having a book out in the last couple months, let alone five years, there's so, so many different layers of, frankly, misogyny and patriarchy wrapped up in being proud of not only writing spicy erotic romance, but also reading it. There's a stigma. That's what I'm looking for, that I feel as though you're doing such a good job of trying to reverse that.

Jordyn:

You know, I think. I think I, you know, I speak for all the passionate ink writers. When we say, yes, we want to. We want to reverse that. We want it out in the open. Just as you'd feel comfortable reading jaws in, you know, on the subway, you should be able to read, you know, anything else that you want to read on the subway. It. It's, you know, a lot of it is just educating, and a lot of it is that the readers are educating us. So the readers have gone on to TikTok and said, I want this. The readers have created Facebook groups that say, I want a book that has one I read today. I want a book that has twin brothers who take me away, tie me up and do the nasty with me because my husband's a twin. And so they're not only sharing what they want for reading, they're sharing what their fantasies are and having that sort of open discussion about, you know, women's sexuality. And what women want is really fairly new. You know, it really is, and it's fantastic. But you still face those moments where you have to defend yourself or be prepared for a response. I was at a writer conference a couple years ago and a hardcore Sci-Fi romance author, you know, sidled up to me and, you know, very, very cutely said, well, how do you do the research for your books? And it was obvious what he was asking. And I said, well, you know, I'm sure it's kind of like you, you write fiction and you write things that you haven't necessarily done, but you write them well and you, you add the emotion in the setting. I said, I'm pretty sure you haven't shot your ass into space to be able to write Sci-Fi. And I looked at him with my best, you know, dumb, stupid woman writer look, and he blinked repeatedly and yeah, backed away and avoided me for the rest of the conference, which was just fantastic. But yeah, you still get those sort of goofy questions, the wink wink, nudge nudge or uslet. And I think one of the things about the word smut is it's a lot like the word slut, right? It used to be used as a derogatory term and we embraced it and we said, yes, we do like sex. And the smut readers are saying, yes, we like reading sexy read. So what?

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah, so what? I mean, there, it's like, this is where I was thinking earlier when I asked you if it's fun. It's fun. It's fun. And like, if people enjoy it and think that it's fun, then there should be a path available for them to be successful doing it and not punished or put to the side or compartmentalized based on genre tags that are impossible to find.

Jordyn:

It should be. And until the markets realize that they're only cutting their own throat, it's going to continue to be that way. I can't advertise winter's list on Amazon because there are three heads in a row that look like they might be laying down.

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah.

Jordyn:

And so that's very sexually explicit. And it's like, well, it's just three heads. There's nothing.

Rachel:

Right. There's not, like, body parts. Right.

Jordyn:

You know, there's not even a hint of side boob, I promise you. But it's still too taboo for them. But, you know, the interesting thing about romance is that it empowers us as individuals to explore what we're really interested in. And to know if you read something in a book and it makes you feel good, then you're maybe not feeling so much shame about what it is that you really want in your heart, in your soul. Yeah, I love that. I think that was great for harlequins, even for less explicit romance. I should be able to have a healthy relationship. I should be able to have a conversation about what I want, whether it's about what I want career wise or what I want intimacy wise. And I think romance teaches people how to do that. Just like fiction teaches people how to live. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot out there about how the psychology of story works. And it works the same way sexually.

Rachel:

Yeah, that makes complete sense. And I also think it's, like, so important to note that we pick up a Sci-Fi or a fantasy to put ourselves in that character's skin. And, like, that's not any more valid than, like, picking up a romance to put ourselves in that character's skin. You know, it's the. It's the same way your brain works on the same way on both stories.

Jordyn:

It does.

Rachel:

It's nothing. It's not any more shameful to want to experience something different in a romance. And that's like you said, it's not even just explicit erotic romance that would. Any type of romantic story. You're trying to evoke a feeling. Like a reader picks up that book to feel something and a reader picks up a fantasy to feel something to, like, I'm never gonna go to space, most likely, unless, you know, our world can change in the blink of an eye. But, like, I don't want to be an astronaut, but it would be really interesting to read the Martian, you know.

Jordyn:

And, like, see potatoes grown in poop. Right.

Rachel:

You know, like, it's the question you.

Jordyn:

Ask yourselves watching that movie. Yes, absolutely.

Rachel:

It's the same thing. It doesn't have to be or it shouldn't be any less meaningful or important. Or treat it as if it's less meaningful. Important because it's romance.

Jordyn:

Yeah. Yeah. And we're so quick to pick up those. Those sci fis and turn them into movies and have those fantasies and, you know, or pick up the elves and the orcs and all of that and go drop rings into a volcano. But we're. We're sort of shocked if somebody wants to pick up a romance and turn that into a movie. And typically we only see that if there's some kind of murder mystery around it or some kind of abuse, which is kind of sad.

Rachel:

Yeah. Yeah. It gets tacked on to something else, like when it just becomes a subplot. Like, okay, well, that's why. I mean, I now have. I very clearly remember reading YA books, like, desperate for a romantic subplot and feeling like if I wanted to just read a Ya romance, then it was not like there weren't as many books available. Like, romance was just allocated to subplot status. It wasn't as important. And as soon as I became an adult and I had the opportunity to read a book dedicated to romance, it completely opened my eyes of like, oh, this is. It doesn't have to just be this kind of shameful thing on the side that you tack on to a bigger story that is seemingly more important.

Jordyn:

Yeah. I don't know what's more important to human beings than survival in sex. I mean, they're kind of pretty much twined together there.

Rachel:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jordyn:

You know, let me survive long enough to procreate, you know?

Rachel:

Exactly.

Jordyn:

That's pretty much the imperative there.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

But we sort of miss that in some of the books.

Rachel:

Yeah. Such a huge theme. Speaking of character. And your point exactly is such a huge theme. I feel like in romance is obviously the deep seated desire to be loved. Obviously. And I think we all share that. But on top of this character's desire to be loved, there's always a desire of acceptance, of belonging, of empathy, of true intimacy. To be known. And that's something every single human being yearns for. To be known, to be seen, to be accepted. And I think that's why I connect to romance so well. And why I completely understand that it's the number one selling genre in the world, is because it is the most human of needs to be loved. To want to be loved.

Jordyn:

It is. I mean, you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and it's just right above, you know, let me eat and have water.

Rachel:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jordyn:

And and as we. As we move up the chain, you know, it's more and more awareness of. Of ourselves and who we are and and becoming that person, you know, and allowing ourselves to become that person that we were meant to be.

Rachel:

Yeah. I love it. So tell me about with erotic romance. We've talked about what it is a little bit about what it isn't. But if a writer is like, I want to write erotic romance, or I'm interested, or I currently do, like, what are some, you wrote this to me, sexy writing tips, which I love. What are some things we do to become better erotic romance writers?

Jordyn:

So I think the first thing is to realize that when you write a sex scene, almost always, at least for me, the initial draft is somewhat like IkEA instructions, you know.

Rachel:

Step by step.

Jordyn:

Yeah. And you almost have to do that, especially if you're working with, you know, more than two people, because limbs can only move in certain ways. Right. And so you need to get the logistics of it correct and see it in your head and see where they're going. And, you know, I have sometimes read things where I'm like, how exactly are they doing that on a bed? You know, and you're tilting your head and you're tilting the book, trying to figure out, like, how does this geometry work? And granted, I'm not the best at geometry or geography. Anybody will tell you I'm spatially impaired, so I have to work at that part. But then, then it becomes about their person, who they are, what their wound is, what they're feeling. Are they feeling strong? Are they feeling weak? Are they feeling confident? Are they feeling vulnerable? Are they feeling like it's fun? Are they feeling sad? Is this a goodbye sex scene? Is this manipulation? Are they feeling dirty? Right? Like, have they always been told, you should never do this? And they're finally getting that twosome or threesome that they wanted instead of having the solo action? And maybe they even feel guilty about solo action. Maybe they're having a masturbation scene. And they were raised, you don't do that. And so they're having this huge character arc all by themselves. So you layer in sort of that wound and the emotion. And then I like to kind of go back and think about, like, how would this character think about sex? Like, how does it relate to.

Rachel:

The.

Jordyn:

Environment that we're in? The genre of the story? One of my critique partners, one of my beta readers, said, you know, you write the best orgasms, but you never use the word orgasm.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

And I'm like, yeah, because I'm too busy showing.

Rachel:

Exactly.

Jordyn:

And letting them go into the stars, letting them blank out, having them giggle about the one sock that gets left on as they trip over themselves. I'm very much about having, like, some real life pumped into these sex scenes because sex is messy and we make funny faces, and it's really difficult to get your clothes off in any kind of, like, fashion.

Rachel:

Exactly.

Jordyn:

And, you know, if you're doing it outside against a tree, there's going to be splinters and rations and. Yeah. So I try and keep it a little bit real.

Rachel:

I was just going to say realism. One of the things that reminds me of this is something I've only noticed in the past couple years as being more accepted. Like, sex requires cleanup. Right. Or else you get sex. Like, sex requires post sex.

Jordyn:

If you don't know this, he, afterwards, these ladies utis are not fun. Did I mention how I started writing?

Rachel:

Bad things can happen. Bad things can happen. But in, like, the first when, like, I took so long, I feel like for writers to include even a mention that, like, cleanup is necessary. Right. That there needs to be aftercare depending on whatever you're doing, that there has to be like a post thing that.

Jordyn:

Goes on, possibly even a pre thing.

Rachel:

A pre thing depending on what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. And I think injecting that realism in pre, post, whatever is that you're doing.

Jordyn:

Even during, like, if you're gonna do, like, ass to mouth, that's fine, but acknowledge it. Like, just acknowledge it. Like, don't. Don't be like, yep. And then it was tasty. Goodness. Woohoo. I mean, okay, if that's your character, but, like, let's, let's get real about this.

Rachel:

Yes. Do you ever read. Do you ever read omegaverse?

Jordyn:

I do. I read pretty much everything.

Rachel:

Everything. Okay, so, you know, in omegaverse, they have, like, scents, and usually there's some sort of a description of what scent is a musk. Is a musk. And then there's usually, like, a description of taste. And whenever they're like, they're like, it's something fruit related or dessert related or, you know, whatever.

Jordyn:

Oh, yeah. Cherry cheesecake.

Rachel:

Yeah, cherry cheesecake. I accept that. Plus something else, like, you have to.

Jordyn:

Be some salted caramel in there.

Rachel:

Like, be a little realistic. This is still, like a bodily function. Like, this is still part of our bodies and it's not.

Jordyn:

Yeah, we're an ocean. Yeah, we're an ocean. We're a lot of water. A whole lot of different salts.

Rachel:

Yes.

Jordyn:

You know, depending on where you are in your cycle, you're gonna, you're gonna taste different. And most romance does not even deal with menstruation at all.

Rachel:

Right? Uh huh.

Jordyn:

Some of them do very actively. Like, that's their key. Yay. Go for it. I had to throw in a menstruation situation in winter's list because I had screwed up the calendar. Yet another writer thing you have to learn is that time must pass.

Rachel:

Yeah, I know.

Jordyn:

That's during.

Rachel:

I hate it.

Jordyn:

The love of God, would somebody hate us? The calendar for all my books. Right. I hate it, but I have to do it. So I had this 30 day window where they're supposed to be on this island, and she's starting this thing, and I counted up all the days and all the things that had happened, and I had three weeks. I was like, I need another week in there. I'm like, hello, mister period.

Rachel:

Exactly.

Jordyn:

Well, let me just inject you into it, which was actually really kind of accurate. I mean, if you spend a month with a woman who is fertile in her twenties, you're probably going to have to deal with that.

Rachel:

Yeah. Or if, like, there are so many reasons why someone may have or not have a period that are still, and I'm not just talking about pregnancy. I'm also talking about, like, other health care or birth control. Exactly.

Jordyn:

You know, they could have chosen to not have kids and had early sterilization, whatever it is. But you got to kind of address, you have to navigate these things.

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah. And, like, I, there are intentional, we just recorded an episode with another guest about making intentional choices. And, like, it, it doesn't necessarily matter so much what the choice is. And I say that with a huge asterisk of, like, of course it matters what the choice is to some degree, but, like, what really matters is the intentionality with which you make it, how it affects your characters, and the message that you're trying to portray by making that choice. You know, like, if you're making a difficult decision with these characters to show one aspect of life or a different aspect of life, like, what is the message that you are trying to convey by making that decision? So it's just like a thoughtfulness that goes into these choices that if you.

Jordyn:

Miss, every single thing should be intentional in your writing. And that's a hard thing to learn from the names you give people, from the places that you set it. Um, you know, if you're setting, if you're setting a story in a particular place, especially someplace, you know, more exotic or whatever, what's the reason? Have a reason. If, if you're going to have a particular sex scene, have a reason for it, yes. You know, what is your, what is your goal? Um, I absolutely agree with that. And, and I think, I think readers pick up on if you've just thrown something in, even if it's just subconsciously, they pick up on it. Mm hmm.

Rachel:

They do. And they wonder why. Like, there have been so many times where I'm looking at a book and, like, internally screaming, why? Why is this happening? Like, just give me a reason why.

Jordyn:

The biggest. Oh, God, why? Right. So I have a critique partner who's really tough with why. And sometimes I just want to, like, drive the 200 miles to go visit her and tell her because. Which is totally not legitimate, and I love her for it because she makes my book so much better, but. Oh, that why question. Right. Yes. I think if writers could get away from one question, it would be that. And it's the most important question.

Rachel:

It's the most important question. And, I mean, to circle back around to your original advice, which was, like, include in the first draft of a sex scene, it's more instructional, but the more that you add onto it, that is a question that you should be asking. If we're going to tie this to character arc, why is this happening? What is the meaning? When you were mentioning earlier of, like, tying in the character's wound, we call that the internal obstacle. So tying in the character's flaws, their internal obstacles, the transformation that they're going through in that moment, the meaning. What is the meaning of this? And it doesn't have to.

Jordyn:

It's usually sex.

Rachel:

Yes. Yes. And it doesn't have to be that. Every single sex scene is, like, emotionally groundbreaking. The world is changing, and you're reborn anew. But the point is that there's meaning for it to be on the page, to do something, to move a character forward in a specific way or backward or show us all.

Jordyn:

You should be doing that, all of your scenes, but especially sex scenes, because they are so emotionally loaded. They're loaded for the reader, and they're loaded for the characters because you don't go into reading a sex scene and just be like, oh, yeah, okay, I think I'll read. No big deal. You know, it's not putting a saddle on a horse. You know, you don't have to have a lot of emotion or meaning behind that necessarily. You might in a cowboy story. But when you go into a sex scene and you're connecting these people, it's critical that you really think about, like, where is their head at?

Rachel:

Mm hmm.

Jordyn:

Where is their head at? Both of them. Because they're going to act different, they're going to touch different, they're going to feel things. They're going to, you know, if. If their nose is buried in the other one's neck, what are they smelling? What are they feeling how, you know, how is that connection working?

Rachel:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such a balance. And maybe you have a tip about this. So, as I say, this is also, like, a question of, you know, what's your opinion? But when I was first draft sex scenes, I'm like, whatever, right? When you go back over them to strengthen them, one of the tips that I had loved, that I used as I was practicing these scenes is the movement matters, the positioning matters, but less of that and more of emotion inside our heads fills the scene in, you know, like, that is what gives us the depth to the scene where, like, if I can get my characters positioned, I don't have to, like, show every thrust, but I would love to show.

Jordyn:

Please don't.

Rachel:

Right.

Jordyn:

Just like, please don't show them reaching for the doorknob, turning the doorknob, pulling the door forward until it was twelve inches wide, and peeking through the opening. Just. They can just open the door and peek through. It's the same thing with sex. The same thing with psych. You just need enough that everybody sees what's going on as far as the. The physicality of it.

Rachel:

Yes. Fill in the rest with the emotions.

Jordyn:

Unless there's something really interesting. You know, I've had a character who had an amputation, and the other character that he was with had a cast on their leg, and so there was a little bit more to the physicality of it, but that was part of their character, that was part of the plot, that was part of where they were. And so I had to think about it a little bit more. But I still, I think that's the part that you go through on the second draft. As you add in all the other stuff, you kind of trim that by.

Rachel:

Yes. Yeah. And I think that's what people tend to mess up or they tend to falter. And when they're writing those sex scenes is an overemphasis on the positioning, and not just the positioning of bodies, but, like, an overemphasis on the description of the slap of skin where I'm like, I don't. Maybe I need that once, but I really want to know, how are our characters hearts breaking and stitching back together? That's much more interesting.

Jordyn:

And I'm less concerned about whether in the case of a hero attending two breasts, they. They suckle one nipple and then they have to go the other breast, suck the other nipple. We have to have very detailed nipple discussions and to the point where you're like, how many times can you write the word nipple?

Rachel:

Nipple. I know.

Jordyn:

I'm pretty sure I've written it like 80 gazillion times and cut it almost as much. And, oh, by the way, if you're writing stories and you're looking for other words, I highly recommend Carol Bristol's. Cara Bristol's naughty words for nice writers. She had lots of words for nipples.

Rachel:

I love that. I love that. I'll put that in the link, in the show notes link.

Jordyn:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel:

Naughty words for nice.

Jordyn:

First acquisitions. Yeah, naughty words for nice writers. Yeah, yeah. Because when you think about. For those writers who are, who are trying to write a sex scene, especially their first sex scene, you know, if you're writing your character's first sex scene, their virgin sex scene, then things are. Yes. Very much about. Oh, my God, he's touching me there, you know, kind of thing. And, oh, that feels weird. And, oh, my leg isn't. Is everything right? Does this look right because you're a virgin? Right. Like, everything is new and vivid and you're so in your head about. About all of the things. Now, if you're writing a character who's like, 27, is having sex with three men, has had all kinds of sex in the past, these men know what they're doing then it's more about the connection and who's doing what and their facial expressions and is everybody really into it the same amount? And why doesn't he have a heart on, is he not feeling this or. Those two seem to be more into each other than they're into me. Am I interrupting something? Am I causing. Am I causing. Causing a disruption in a relationship that's already really solid and do I feel guilty about that? I mean, all the things that go on in your head mentally during a sex scene, that's the stuff you should be putting on the page.

Rachel:

Yes.

Jordyn:

You know? Yeah, you should talk about the pleasure. Yes. You should talk about all the wonderful things that happen physically, but you don't have to, like, do surgery on it.

Rachel:

Right? Yeah, I ended up. I ended up giving myself like a loose kind of guideline of one physical description with two thoughts. So if I was going to add the brush of a touch or if I was going to add a physicality to the scene, I wanted two thoughts to follow it, or a thought and then a meaning making thought a question and then an answer or a piece of dialogue, something that could break up also, not just the touches of touch, touch, touch, touch. But like, the flow of the scene could keep going and moving us forward.

Jordyn:

Yeah. And then there's the whole build up. So Bridgerton's big right now. It just came out with the third season, second half dropped. The second season of Bridgerton was a masterclass in sexual tension.

Rachel:

Yeah, yeah.

Jordyn:

Those tiny little touches, the breath, the gas, the this, the that. If you can get that sexual attention into your book before the sex scene ever happens. The sex scene will explode.

Rachel:

Yes.

Jordyn:

It will just explode the way it's supposed to. But getting the sexual attention right. Leading up to it, spend time there. Like, don't shortchange that. You know, there's a. There's an intimacy trajectory that probably lots of. Lots of people have heard of that talks about, you know, voice to voice. The very first thing we see or hear about a lover is their voice, and then we look at their body. Right. Eyes to body, and then we might touch hands. And so you build that sexual tension with that intimacy and don't shortchange that because it really. It really matters. I'll be plotting along, and then I always go back through and say, all right, where am I? Intimacy trajectory moments. And that always changes my plot because I've always sort of jumped the gun a little bit about getting them into bed because I know that's the fun part. Right. I'm like, well, maybe there's, like, kiss or something.

Rachel:

Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's actually, like, a really great next tip. Of what? When we're thinking about plotting and where we're marking our trajectory of things, um, there's so many. There's so many different ways. Right? Like, I'm not. I'm not searching for, and I don't. I think some people do search for, but in this discussion, it doesn't exist of, like, when is the right place to have a sex scene? And there's that whole phrase of, like, sex at 60%. Have you heard that before? Sex at 60?

Jordyn:

Oh, yeah.

Rachel:

Yeah. But, like, I don't think that there's a. There is a perfect plot point because every story is different, but what are. What do you look at when you're looking at your plot, when you're looking at character? At the same time and relational development?

Jordyn:

I do tend to have my sex at 60 because it is the big, pivotal turning point and because my plot is so heavily sex based. But I've also been told, you know, you have too many sex scenes in this book, and it's like, no, I don't.

Rachel:

Right?

Jordyn:

No, I don't. And usually I'm told by somebody who doesn't write erotic romance because they're literally counting the sex scenes. Yeah, I'm having the sex scenes for a particular purpose in the plot. So, you know, it really depends. Like, I have started books off with sex caveat that makes them harder to market because they will get flagged by, like, Google and Amazon and all that because they read your opening sample. So your reader will love it. Your platform will not. And you're, you know, you just deal with it. Yeah, I've started with sex. I've started with bad sex. I've started with, you know, you can have early masturbation scenes where they're thinking about each other. You can have voyeuristic scenes where they're kind of, like, catch each other naked, that kind of thing. But usually, usually. Not always, but usually you don't just jump into bed with somebody who's walked in the door.

Rachel:

Right.

Jordyn:

You know, not that I'm saying you can't start the book that way. Do it. You know, start it at a frat party where they wake up and they already fucked. I don't care. But you have to. You have to really think about, like, where. Where it makes sense in your story, how you're gonna drive your story forward, not just, oh, we're at the middle of the book, they should have sex, or, oh, we're at the end of the book, they should have a final sex scene. Like, maybe they don't need a final sex scene. Maybe you need to just do something else for your epilogue. Or maybe you need to be looking into the future farther than the. The next sex scene. I find, as I write a lot of my books, by the time I get to the end, we've done all the stuff in the sex scenes that we needed to do. And so the end really isn't about the sex scene. It's about the happily ever after.

Rachel:

Yeah. I just read a book, and it came out earlier this week, where, by the time I got to the end, like, the last. Basically 10% of the book was just entirely a sex scene. I mean, it was multiple, but it was just. The last 10% was just, like, the wrap up sex. And I, like, hated it because I was like, you didn't care. And there was no final plot thing. So I was like, what are we doing here? Why are we here? The question why? Why are we here? And there's a part of us that's like, yes, I want some. Like, I do think that there are some books I pick up where at the end, I'm looking for, you know, the final. Oh, my gosh, where are we going with this? You know, like, are we headed towards a, you know, a baby, are we not? What? You know, usually there's a wrap up, right? But then if it's just like, here's 10% of the book, that's only sex, because it's the last 10% of the book. And you get it. I'm like, why? Why am I reading what's changing? The book could be over. Yeah. You could have saved me 10% of this book to read. Because nothing changed.

Jordyn:

And that's the thing, is that any scene you have, something should change, even if it's the. Even if it's the ending, the epilogue. And, you know, Gwen Hayes would say, even as you show you're wholehearted and you're epilogue, there should still be some question and some tension there. Yeah. And so sometimes I will end a book actually leading into the next book, as opposed to, you know, wrapping up or having a final scene when their story's done, like. Like it's been satisfied. We know those characters together. We know essentially where they're gonna be going. Maybe they'll make an appearance in the next book in the series. If you're writing series, yay. But don't put in a sex scene at the end just because it's the end.

Rachel:

Right.

Jordyn:

Like, have something changing. You know, maybe. Maybe he. He's been reluctant to have sex with her because his mom, you know, is really intrusive in his life. And, you know, you want that final sex scene to be the phone rings, and it's his mom on the phone, and he just pushes the phone off the bed, you know, keeps going. Right. Like, that would give you some satisfaction because you see that he's, like, really, truly changed.

Rachel:

Yes.

Jordyn:

You know, he's really not a mama's boy anymore, and he's really into you or whatever it is. That makes sense. But if you're not going to show something, show being the keyword. If you're not show something has changed or show that tension, don't bother.

Rachel:

Right.

Jordyn:

I mean, I'm with you. I'll just stop reading. I'm just like, yeah, no, I get it. I got it.

Rachel:

Yeah. I honest, I 100% feel. And this has happened to me multiple times, is. I 100% feel like when a. When a romance book gets to the point where I'm just skimming through the sex scenes, then I'm like, this is not my favorite. Like, that doesn't resonate with me. If I'm getting towards that, where I'm like, okay, I don't even want to read the sex scenes because I know nothing happens. Then I'm like, why? What we doing here? Maybe I should. I'll move on to something different.

Jordyn:

I suspect that as a writer who is writing a sex scene because they were told that sexy stuff sells. But if you're uncomfortable writing something, don't write it.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

Don't write it. If you're uncomfortable writing dubious consent, don't write it.

Rachel:

Yeah. In that case, I agree with you, but uncomfortability in general, sometimes you just need to practice more. But, like, if you're.

Jordyn:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. If you're. If you are uncomfortable writing, you know, heavy dialogue. Yeah. You should probably practice your dialogue. That. That kind of stuff. Yeah. But I'm more talking about, like, if. If it makes you really squicky.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

The right tentacle scenes don't do.

Rachel:

Not for you. Probably not for you.

Jordyn:

Yeah. Write some other thing. There's others of us who will write all the technical scenes. We got the readers covered. Don't you worry. You can go write what you want to write because there is a niche for everyone. I know. We get really focused on, oh, dark romance is big right now. I've got to write dark romance.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

That's not my world. I can't write. I just don't feel comfortable writing that.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

Right. So I don't worry about it. I don't judge any. I read it, I just can't write it.

Rachel:

Yeah, exactly. I have. I actually have a definition question there. I. As these deeper, as these more niche romance genres appear, like dark romance, I often find that there's not an actual, like, what is dark romance? And the reason I'm asking is because I wrote blood in the water. Not, I don't think this book is dark romance, but it's been labeled dark romance by plenty of my readers. And I'm like, that's great. I'm glad that you enjoy it. But I find this is, I think, something that goes across writing in general, like, with a new. A newer genre, like cozy, cozy fantasy, where, what. What is the definite, like, what are we labeling that? What is the definition? But I'm wondering, do you, have you found a definition for dark romance?

Jordyn:

I think I'm sure there are people who could speak better to this than I can because, you know, Nikki Rome and some other. Some other people who are experts. But I will say that, for me, dark romance really examines power differentials. So power imbalances. And generally, there is a, I'm gonna say criminal, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm gonna really expand that to just be like, you know, you're on the. You're on the. You're on the other side of the tracks of the law, whether it's motorcycle or mafia or any of these things. And so there's a bad boy element or bad girl element because not all dark romances, bad boys, some of it bad girl. Hello, Kalia. Talia Wilde writes motorcycle women. Anyway, so I think that. So you're in this sort of dark, shadowy underground. Right. And then you have a power imbalance of some kind that even if you're getting consent, the consent is somewhat dubious, somewhat non consensual, because they're in a position where the only choice. Only choice, I love that sort of tiny shrimp or giant shrimp, whatever, puts that person, the underdog, in a position of having to accept something they might not otherwise. Right. And I read it, and I think sometimes it's sexy as hell. Sometimes it's too much for me. One of the things I like to see in dark romance, this is just me, is I like to see that the person in power is using that power for good, even if we don't know it.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

Right. So, like, you'll see a Bratwa mafia kidnapping, but he's protecting that kidnapped person from something worse.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

Right, right. So there's, like, there's this hero aspect to the story. I really enjoy that. I think that makes, for me, dark romance much better. I enjoy the hell out of dark romance.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

I don't have.

Rachel:

I do too. I really. I enjoy reading it, and I.

Jordyn:

Why do you think your book was labeled dark? What do you think? The aspect.

Rachel:

Okay, well, so I write mafia romance. So it's. It's. There's lots of violence in it, but the romance is very sweet. There's clear consent. None of these guys have, like, they're very morally gray, but they don't have, you know, power they're wielding over, you know, my FMC. So I don't feel like that is. I would not label their romance dark. Like, there's no there. I don't consider.

Jordyn:

Yeah, it sounds like you write more just antihero.

Rachel:

Yeah, I would say that I write, like, morally grey mafia romance. It's violent for sure. Like, there's, because of it, the criminal world. But the guys themselves are not violent towards my female main character. They're like sweet cinnamon rolls towards her.

Jordyn:

Right.

Rachel:

But I feel like it gets labeled dark romance because of the criminality, because of the mafia genre. And I've always, like, found I don't have a problem that people call it that. But I do worry it sets the wrong expectations with, like, I mean, I'm thinking of, like, chantel Tessier's books, where I'm like, that's not what I write. Not at all. But it's.

Jordyn:

There's some stuff that's much darker than what you just described.

Rachel:

Exactly. So I'm like, I don't. I would not consider.

Jordyn:

You know, I think all genres end up on a continuum.

Rachel:

A spectrum, for sure.

Jordyn:

And so. Yeah. So how far deep in dark do you want to go? You know, just like there's a sex continuum in romance. There's a power continuum in your dark romance, as you just described. Even cozy romance or cozy mystery is. Is some of the most regulated mystery out there in terms of the rules. And so, of course, I had to approach it and break all the rules around it because that's me. But, you know, if you put cozy at one end of the mystery spectrum, and then, you know, you get these, like, psychological mysteries and dark, dark mysteries and violent, you know, darkly dreaming Dexter mysteries that are super violent, you know, they're all on a continuum as well.

Rachel:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jordyn:

I think it happens in any genre.

Rachel:

It totally does. And I think that's, number one, another reason why we should be well read in this area that we're writing. Even if. Even if it's like, I read a lot of mafia romance and I read a lot of white shoes, and there's not always a ton of why choose Mafia romance that I read. But I'm like, still, I have read in both of those areas, so I can understand where I want to fall in that continuum. Like, I did not not write dark romance because I didn't. Like, I chose not to do that. Right. Like, I wanted the relationships in this book to be a different way, so I chose to write them in the way that they are, but I was able to make that confident decision because I had read a lot.

Jordyn:

Yeah. And you have understood, and, yes, you should absolutely read the genre, and you should know the conventions. Like, when I set out to break the cozy mystery convention, my book follows every convention of a cozy. Except there's sex in it.

Rachel:

Yeah, right.

Jordyn:

Explicit sex in it, which is a huge no no. The al. The cozy mystery guy is going, what? This isn't cozy? No, no, no, no. You do not write cozy mystery. And I'm like, well, I write dirty cozy.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

Because I do. It's a small town. There's quirky characters. There's no blood on the page. There's an amateur detective who's connected with the police force. I have all of the other conventions, except I'm dirty to that because that's who I am. But I did it on purpose, as you say. I did it on purpose. I did it for a reason, and I market it that way.

Rachel:

Yes. Yeah.

Jordyn:

I tell the reader, this is not your typical cozy. This is. I mean, it's even in the title. It's dirty.

Rachel:

Yeah. Yeah. Which is, I think, very engaging marketing to call it dirty cozy. I think that's fun.

Jordyn:

It is fun. It's fun to write. Although I will tell you that writing mystery is really.

Rachel:

I know. I've got your. I've still got the mystery beats book on my desk.

Jordyn:

Demystifying the beats. Yeah. I wrote that so that I could write dirty cozies.

Rachel:

Yeah. I love that. I love that. Well, we went so long in our discussion today. Me too. Me too. And I actually have one last question for you, because I can still talk forever, but when I. Blood in the water is not the first time that I had written explicit, open door sex scenes. And when I had originally tried to teach myself how to do it, I actually had written a lot of fanfiction. And I read a ton of fanfiction because I feel like that was the crucible of poorly written and well written sex scenes. Like, they kind of get straight to the sex scenes in a lot of fanfiction, and you're able to tell really quickly, like, what resonates with you and what doesn't and, like, what you find good and what you don't. So I had read a shit ton of fanfiction and then had actually written some of my own because I enjoyed it. Like, I'm not going to say I didn't enjoy it. Thank you. I feel like there's so much value in fanfiction.

Jordyn:

It's like a training wheels for writers.

Rachel:

Training wheels. That's exactly what I mean.

Jordyn:

Literatica is sexual. Fanfiction is essentially what it is. It's just sex fanfiction. We're all writing fantasies and this and that. And that's where I started. Right. So in some ways, I started in fanfiction, too. It just wasn't about somebody else's world.

Rachel:

World, yeah. So my question was going to be like, that was where I, number one, learned how to do it, I feel like, because I was able to compare myself to a lot of other people's work very quickly. And number two, where I got more comfortable posting it because, like, it was anonymous and I could put it out in the world. And I could see people's reactions, like, very quickly. But my question to you is, if someone wants to hone these skills and, like, practice more, we've talked about first drafts. We've talked about adding, but do you have any other tips for, like, let's narrow, let's hone, let's refine.

Jordyn:

I think you have to get really comfortable with sex research, right? So be okay watching some porn if you're gonna write explicit sex, you know, know what, the toys are out there. Read a lot. Read erotica. Read, as you say, fan fiction. Read all this stuff. Figure out what is in your wheelhouse and figure out what really lights you up. Right. And write it like that. Because. Just because I write it a certain way, there's readers that will love it. There's readers that will hate it. Write it your way, because then you'll have your readers. But really think about the feel, because how we feel during sex. How we feel during a sex scene is so much more important than which body parts are activated, because there's a lot of people out there who are differently abled, who are using all kinds of different body parts.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Jordyn:

And so get away from. Get away from PNV and get creative and find out what's going on in your head and put that on the page.

Rachel:

I love that. That's amazing. That is such a great way to wrap us up. So where can people find you, Jordan, and your stuff? If they want to read, learn more about you, where do they go?

Jordyn:

I am all over the place, but the easiest place to find me is jordancross.com, which is j o r dash dash r dash s.com.

Rachel:

Amazing.

Jordyn:

And I'd love to see you there.

Rachel:

Yes, I will put that link in the show notes. So if you're listening, you can swipe up and tap it. And I'll also include a link to the book that you mentioned. Naughty words for nice writers.

Jordyn:

Nice writers. Just before.

Rachel:

Check that out. Amazing. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Jordyn:

This has been a joy.

Rachel:

We'll have you on again. Come back again. Thank you.

Jordyn:

Sounds great. Thanks.

Rachel:

If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list. Sign up now to get our free email course. The magic of character arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night. Link in the show notes. We'll see you there.